Some thoughts on Farke

[GozoCanary]

To be honest, I haven't a clue where I stand on Farke. I was one of those who wanted him gone in the early days of the 2018-19 season, then I thought how very very wrong I had been as the season unfolded and felt extremely embarrassed about my previous opinions, but now I am looking at the shambles of a season we have had and wondering if he just got lucky, with Webber's signings and a group of exceptional young players all coming to fruition at the same time.

Something has gone wrong for sure. Teams don't get 94 points and score 93 goals in the Championship, and then end up marooned at the bottom of the Prem, barely able to get a shot on target - not even allowing for the step up in class. Sheffield United, who were more or less our equals last season, prove that. It makes me wonder if things have gone on behind the scenes, tiffs between Farke and some of the players - how else to explain how Leitner and Vrancic, and now Buendia and possibly even Pukki, are being tossed aside for mediocre players like Duda and Rupp and Drmic?

Or am I reading too much into this? Is it simply that you can't play expansive football in the Prem unless you belong to the mega-rich? Did we bat above our average last season, fuelled by momentum and the slices of luck we always seemed to get, so reality was bound to hit at some point? Or has this season shown Farke's limitations - that it is Webber and the youth team set-up that we have mostly to thank for last season?

I'm not trying to be provocative, but what are people's ideas on this?

Whatever happens, it feels as if a massive opportunity has been wasted, and we will have to start all over again next season once the youngsters and the better players have gone.

 

[SuffolkCanary]

I think Farke and Webber have gone on record as saying that promotion wasn’t expected last year and came ahead of time, and this was the reason behind the lack of investment. I don’t think we can underestimate the fact that we did not spend any money relatively this season and as I think was also said at the start of the season that they would treat this as a free hit at the PL and trust the group that got us promotion. We have also been unlucky with the number of serious injuries we have had especially defensively.

I think we could see a lot of changes before next summer with a number of players leaving as there price has been inflated by this seasons venture in the league which could then lead to larger re-investment back into the squad. Players in this bracket would include Aarons, Godfrey, Lewis, Buendia, Cantwell. All of whom have the potential to leave before next season. We also have a number of players that are coming to an age where we might look to cash in while we can - Krul, Vrancic, Leitner, Pukki. Then we have McGovern, Klose, Tettey who I believe are at the end of their respective deals and could leave on freebies.

 

[DHCanary]

I think the key flaw last season was that we had to outscore our opponents most weeks. It's all very well needing to score 2-3 goals each game when you have the firepower to do so (relative to opposition defences), but in the Prem we were never going to be as potent an attacking force, and our defensive abilities have not improved. In contrast, Sheffield United had the best defence in the league, and if you can restrict an opponent to fewer goals, you're always going to be in the game. Their "overlapping CBs" were much vaunted last season as an attacking option, but what's served them best from playing 5 defenders in the Championship is that they had a defence capable of defending as a 5. We've barely heard about the attacking qualities of their CBs this season, but their cohesive defensive efforts have been impressive.

So at the end of last season, you'd have expected Norwich to look to improve defensively before the Prem season, Sheffield United to bolster their attack.

To look at signings, I think this has been our biggest failure. Byram has been a success when fit, but the jury is out on every other signing I'd say. Amadou and Fahrmann should have brought Champions League quality to our defence, neither achieved much of note. Factoring in injuries, our defence has frequently been weaker this season than the whole of last season. Even further up the field, nobody has impressed. It's questionable as to whether any of our summer signings have even pushed our existing squad to improve to keep their spots.

In contrast, Sheffield United signed Moussett (5 goals, 4 assists, leading scorer), McBurnie (4 goals Berge (£19m, and brought the best out of Lundstram), Robinson (2 goals, 2 assists), Freeman and Osborn. They've been fortunate that all their first choice midfielders have continued to scored goals (at least 3 each for Norwood, Fleck, Lundstram) and their wing backs have contributed too. They've had the finances to bring players in, but the vast majority of their signings have worked. Their squad has been clearly improved compared to the Championship, ours hasn't.

Even beyond the success (or otherwise) of the players we did sign, the positions we didn't strengthen seem odd. Supposedly (according to Michael Bailey and co) Farke planned to play with 5 defenders this season. Yet two windows passed without a CB signing*, meaning at best we'd have only had 4 available. And we knew from September that Klose was expected to miss the entire season. So if that really was the plan, Farke wasn't well supported.

In terms of Farke's tactics, his initial naivety in the Championship was ended by the Millwall debacle, which led to a change from 4-1-4-1 with just Reed at DM, to a 4-2-3-1 with a recall for Tettey. Arguably our best run of results in the Championship came with a very defensive Tettey-Trybull CM pairing. Farke adapted to the league. This season, at least until after lockdown, there doesn't seem to have been the same realisation of "this isn't working".

Our central midfield has been cut through with ease this season, but Tettey and Trybull have only had 560 mins together all season. He hasn't really put an extra CM in at any point either. Similarly, the central attacking midfield position has generated neither goals or assists this season (maybe 1 for Duda?), but we've played someone in that role without success for 30 games. I can't remember the ins and outs of our injury issues, and there's undoubtedly an element of hindsight in this, but it's disappointing we haven't seen a deeper midfield 3 (4-3-3) with Leitner (who I believe there was a falling out with around the Brighton(A) game) or Vrancic deployed as a deeper playmaking along with a more solid defensive midfield pairing. We've relied entirely on Buendia and Cantwell for creativity going forwards, I don't think sacrificing Duda/Stiepermann would have changed things much in terms of goals.

Our problem with set pieces has been well documented for two seasons. Zonal marking has been blamed, as has a comparatively "short" squad. Perhaps an element of truth to both, but I do struggle to believe that this is the best that our squad could defend. Give a Warnock, Pulis, Allardyce, Benitez, etc our squad and I think our set piece stats would be a lot healthier than 3 scored, 12 conceded (excluding penalties). In general, our defending as a unit has been poor, and I struggle to not blame the coaching for that.

So for me, first team recruitment gets an F this season, coaching gets a D.



*Arguably Amadou, and if he'd been good enough then perhaps we wouldn't be having this argument. But even then we'd have been going into this season with Tettey and Trybull as our only DMs, which seems pretty questionable given respective injury records. All our defensive improvements were dependent on one signing, which isn't great risk mitigation.

 

[Walsh.i.am]

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[carrowcanario]

Something has gone wrong for sure. Teams don't get 94 points and score 93 goals in the Championship, and then end up marooned at the bottom of the Prem, barely able to get a shot on target - not even allowing for the step up in class. Sheffield United, who were more or less our equals last season, prove that. It makes me wonder if things have gone on behind the scenes, tiffs between Farke and some of the players - how else to explain how Leitner and Vrancic, and now Buendia and possibly even Pukki, are being tossed aside for mediocre players like Duda and Rupp and Drmic?

I agree with some of your comments, but this is nonsense. What are you basing this on ? What do you mean players being tossed aside.

What do you mein teams don't win the Championship and end up bottom of the PL it happens regularly. What often happens is that of the 3 promoted teams one normally does well for a season, often getting found out the following season and getting relegated, Sheffield Utd are that team this year.

Leitner & Vrancic have hardly cover themselves in glory when they have had a chance. I very much doubt that they are outstanding in training, but not being selected for games. Whose place is Vrancic going to take Buedia, Cantwell.

Buendia again whilst technically skillful has hardly been outstanding, not helped enough with goals and been petulant at times, prefering to wave his hands around at times when things don't go his way , rather then track back. He's also made his fair share of unforced errors. Yes he and Pukki started the season well, but neither were playing well before the enforced break.

Pukki & Buendia were both mediocre poor in the Southampton game with Pukki missing a least one great goal scoring opportunity. We need to remember all players are returning from a very long break, longer than any summer break and we're expecting them to play 2 games a week for many weeks, without a break that's just madness.

If Farke hadn't given Duda and Rupp and Drmic a chance and played say Leitner, Vrancic & Idah and the result had been the same. People would be saying that they hadn't been given a chance and were being tossed aside.

 

[Bure budgie]

According to EDP, Farke dropped Pukki in an attempt to break his goal drought.
How do you score,when you are sat on your ass on the bench?

 

[1950canary]

Even with my sketchy knowledge of the season so far it does seem grossly unfair to blame Farke. Against the odds and ahead of schedule he got us promoted last year with a the help of a mixture of promising inexperienced youngsters, players punching above their weight, a system based on hard work and fitness and, it has to be said, other teams faltering at the final hurdle. The Board, quite rightly, decided not to spend money we didn't have, on players with large salaries which we couldn't afford if we came down - we have tried that before and nearly went bankrupt. It was always going to be a struggle but we were still in with a chance of staying up when the lockdown came. With 10 weeks off and only 2 weeks to prepare we, like everybody else, suffered a fitness problem made more acute by our reliance on fitness. It reverts to individual skills and,on that, the majority of our players are not up to Premier League standard. Lets see how things develop next season.

 

[GozoCanary]

I agree with some of your comments, but this is nonsense. What are you basing this on ? What do you mean players being tossed aside.

What do you mein teams don't win the Championship and end up bottom of the PL it happens regularly. What often happens is that of the 3 promoted teams one normally does well for a season, often getting found out the following season and getting relegated, Sheffield Utd are that team this year.

Leitner & Vrancic have hardly cover themselves in glory when they have had a chance. I very much doubt that they are outstanding in training, but not being selected for games. Whose place is Vrancic going to take Buedia, Cantwell.

Buendia again whilst technically skillful has hardly been outstanding, not helped enough with goals and been petulant at times, prefering to wave his hands around at times when things don't go his way , rather then track back. He's also made his fair share of unforced errors. Yes he and Pukki started the season well, but neither were playing well before the enforced break.

Pukki & Buendia were both mediocre poor in the Southampton game with Pukki missing a least one great goal scoring opportunity. We need to remember all players are returning from a very long break, longer than any summer break and we're expecting them to play 2 games a week for many weeks, without a break that's just madness.

If Farke hadn't given Duda and Rupp and Drmic a chance and played say Leitner, Vrancic & Idah and the result had been the same. People would be saying that they hadn't been given a chance and were being tossed aside.

It's simply not true to say that teams which win the Championship regularly go down the following season. I had thought QPR did in the season when we went up with them, but apparently they survived on the final day of the season. Burnley went down despite getting 90+ points in the season after they finished runners-up but again that is the only occasion I can remember. Even nowadays performance in the Championship is a pretty good indicator of likelihood of surviving in the Prem.

The team who come up through the play-offs regularly go down, as we did under Neil, but at least we did not spend the season marooned at the bottom of the table.

According to Wikipedia, Leitner started 7 games this season and Vrancic 4. Duda started 8 and Rupp 5, so I don't think we can claim that the latter pair have been unfairly neglected or not given a chance. Since Leitner and Vrancic (especially) did so much to get us here in the first place, I personally believe they deserved more leeway. (I accept we don't know what happens behind the scenes or in training.)

My general point is that things have gone badly wrong, for whatever reason.

 

[carrowcanario]

It's simply not true to say that teams which win the Championship regularly go down the following season.

I didn't say that.

If we look at the last 5 teams that won the Championship prior to us (Wolves, Newcastle, Burnley Bournemouth & Leicester) All with the exception of Burnley had infinitely more funds to throw at their team than we did. Realistically if you take into account how much we've spent it's surprising we're not worse off than we are. Burnley was the exception, but interestingly they won the Championship having got promoted as runners up 2 seasons before followed by relegation. How many points you get in the Championship has no bearing on how you do in the PL, how much you spend does. Other than spending a massive amount of money the only other model that seems to work is yo yoing to build up experience and funds.

In the last 15 years, 11 different teams have won the Championship. Of these 6 are currently in the PL (inc us) & and 5 aren't.

We overachieved last season, we were not ready for promotion, we then spent virtually nothing in the PL. Overachieving I suspect was down to the coaching Farke and his team provided, the amount we spent certainly wasn't.

When Webber arrived the club, he set out a clear plan for us to become an established PL team and we are a year ahead of where we expected to be at this point. Nothing has gone badly wrong, indeed it's the opposite things have gone really well, although I accept it might not feel that way. To put things in perspective go back and look at the posts of a year / 18 months ago, no one in their wildest dreams thought we'd be in the PL and quarter-final of the FA cup at this point, no one.

 

[Canary Rob]

Today’s match answers all the questions around Farke for me.

We’ve been really good this season, despite limited resources. But time and again we’ve been frankly unlucky. Injuries in particular, including Pukki’s ****ing toe, but overall I think heads can be held high - we’ve shown we can play against the best teams.

The fact is Farke is still a work in progress though - he needs to work out a way to improve our defence while maintaining the same quality of football. Some of that might come from fewer injuries and an older defensive line, but I do think Farke could do with thinking again about the defence.

The team also need to deal with the high press better. It doesn’t happen in the Championship as much, but a couple of the mid-table teams - Saints being the most recent - have demolished our confidence due to the high press. We can do it - eg against the biggest teams we’ve generally played well - but it’s inconsistent.

Farke also struggles to find a way to change a game when heads are down. He found it last season in the Championship, so I don’t believe he can’t do it, I just think he lost a little faith in himself and the quality of his players.

I do think a lot of it is to do with the age of our squad too. If we can hold onto a good number of these players I really think we could be on to a good thing in a couple of years’ time. Plus there are players coming through - Idah, Martin.

Farke’s shown faith, he’s young too. I think the future’s bright.

 

[Farked19]

Who would you choose to replace Farke? I think Pulis is available.

 

[robbieBB]

Nothing has gone badly wrong,

We will only discover whether that's true or not once the season is over. It's true that we are a year ahead of where we expected to be; the trouble is, that has consequences which were never envisaged in the original plan. For example, how players like Cantwell, Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis now see their immediate future is quite different from how they would have been seeing it had we stayed in Championship. Similarly, had we stayed in the Championship, DF's ability to manage at the higher level would be just a theoretical question; now, in contrast, there are genuine doubts. Dropping back down to the Championship is not just a case of picking up from where we left off; with early promotion comes change, and very often problems.

 

[Canary Rob]

We will only discover whether that's true or not once the season is over. It's true that we are a year ahead of where we expected to be; the trouble is, that has consequences which were never envisaged in the original plan. For example, how players like Cantwell, Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis now see their immediate future is quite different from how they would have been seeing it had we stayed in Championship. Similarly, had we stayed in the Championship, DF's ability to manage at the higher level would be just a theoretical question; now, in contrast, there are genuine doubts. Dropping back down to the Championship is not just a case of picking up from where we left off; with early promotion comes change, and very often problems.

I am not sure there are genuine doubts to be honest.

He’s not Alex Ferguson, sure. But he’s demonstrated he can win games at this level. Pretty much every issue comes down to injuries.

So I’ve very little doubt he can do it. My doubt is whether he can do it with a paper thin, under-invested squad, ravaged by injuries. And I actually think in another time with a bit of better luck we could have scraped through.

 

[robbieBB]

The team also need to deal with the high press better. It doesn’t happen in the Championship as much, but a couple of the mid-table teams - Saints being the most recent - have demolished our confidence due to the high press. We can do it - eg against the biggest teams we’ve generally played well - but it’s inconsistent.

Why do you think there is this inconsistency Rob? I think it's down to the approach DF takes to the game rather than anything to do with the players; put bluntly, when he thinks the opposition is too strong for his preferred tactics to succeed, he adjusts the balance in favour of defence.

Edit:
“We had allowed Man Utd to have more of the ball than we would have liked, but they have quality players all over the pitch. Sometimes you have to respect that and sit in to a tight shape and be hard to break down" (Todd Cantwell)
My question is why only "sometimes", why not "every game"? Every team at this level has to be respected; keeping a tight shape and being hard to break down is not optional.

 

[mike555]

It's simply not true to say that teams which win the Championship regularly go down the following season. I had thought QPR did in the season when we went up with them, but apparently they survived on the final day of the season. Burnley went down despite getting 90+ points in the season after they finished runners-up but again that is the only occasion I can remember. Even nowadays performance in the Championship is a pretty good indicator of likelihood of surviving in the Prem.

The team who come up through the play-offs regularly go down, as we did under Neil, but at least we did not spend the season marooned at the bottom of the table.

According to Wikipedia, Leitner started 7 games this season and Vrancic 4. Duda started 8 and Rupp 5, so I don't think we can claim that the latter pair have been unfairly neglected or not given a chance. Since Leitner and Vrancic (especially) did so much to get us here in the first place, I personally believe they deserved more leeway. (I accept we don't know what happens behind the scenes or in training.)

My general point is that things have gone badly wrong, for whatever reason.

Of course things have gone wrong. Hardly ever being able to field a settled defensive line up due to a ridiculous amount of injuries is the main one . And being too wasteful in front of goal, Cantwell being probably one of the few exceptions . Pukki, after a fabulous start became one the main culprits. I was disappointed not to have seen more of Vrancic, a player I thought was going to be have no problems adapting to the Premiership.

 

[Bure budgie]

Most on here think Vrancic has been hard done by.
Why does Farke not rate him?
He was my POS last year,and was outstanding in the latter stages of the season.

 

[robbieBB]

Most on here think Vrancic has been hard done by.
Why does Farke not rate him?

Same can be asked of Leitner. I'm reminded of the treatment of Wes Hoolahan later in his career, both at club and international level. He became regarded as a player who the manager couldn't afford to select, on account of his being a liability out of possession. There is a cost/benefit analysis to be done in selecting any player, and I guess DF's assessment is that cost outweighs benefit in the case of both Vrancic and Leitner. A shame for them, and a shame for us IMO.

 

[Canary Rob]

I think that Vrancic doesn’t work hard enough for Farke. He has moments of fabulous attacking play, but I get the impression he’s seen as a luxury. It’s not a style that is all that well-suited to the Premier League - even the very best, like Mata and Berbatov, come in for heavy criticism on that front. I’d like to have seen more of him, but I’m not sure we will now.

I know Leitner was very popular in the Championship, but for me he is much too lightweight. A bit like David Fox. I have to agree with Farke here, though he might come back next season.

 

[Canary Rob]

Why do you think there is this inconsistency Rob? I think it's down to the approach DF takes to the game rather than anything to do with the players; put bluntly, when he thinks the opposition is too strong for his preferred tactics to succeed, he adjusts the balance in favour of defence.

Edit:
“We had allowed Man Utd to have more of the ball than we would have liked, but they have quality players all over the pitch. Sometimes you have to respect that and sit in to a tight shape and be hard to break down" (Todd Cantwell)
My question is why only "sometimes", why not "every game"? Every team at this level has to be respected; keeping a tight shape and being hard to break down is not optional.

Not sure, but you could be right. To be honest, it’s the right decision if it’s a question of strength in the opposition.

My feeling, though, is it’s more about changes in defence. Have we had three matches in a row with the same CBs this season? Or the same back four?

Consistency in defence is so huge to the way most teams play - off the top of my head I can’t think of a premier league winning team that hasn’t had its foundation in at least one consistent CB.

 

[robbieBB]

My feeling, though, is it’s more about changes in defence.

Would you also say that injuries to our CBs explains why we regularly concede goals from set pieces?