I haven't seen Hooiveld or Yoshida have about 20 different threads in one season. I also haven't see them get slagged off even close to what Ramirez has.
I used to think Tommy Mulgrew was hopeless and there was no 'Reality TV' in those days.. in fact we didn't have a TV. People are allowed an opinion, get used to it, you've clearly got one.. and my opinion of Simon Cowell is unprintable..
Time and again I have said Gaston WILL come into his own. Next season. Not that I think he's playing badly at the moment. JRod has been given time, so should Gaston.
I can tell you why it got so out of hand yesterday. It is not unreasonable for us to criticise a player's performance. What would be the point of this forum if we just said everyone was brilliant all the time. The fact is that Ramirez wasn't at his best yesterday. Now if statement had been made in that way I don't think anyone could have argued with it. But because the original statement was made in a more hysterical way, something to the effect that Ramirez is crap and should be sold, it provoked an equally strong response. Because of that the perfectly reasonable debate about how Ramirez played against Reading was lost. My plea to anyone making a comment is to be reasonable and responsible and to remember that most things in football are about opinion. Therefore do not be upset when someone else's opinion does not agree with yours. So when I said, "the fact is that Ramirez was not at his best......" I obviously meant, in my opinion!
You won't find too many fair minded individuals taking you to task for a bit of reasonable criticism. What we had yesterday was [not my words, I assure you]... Ramirez is **** and we should offload him ASAP. I think that's a fairly accurate memory of it. You can imagine that didn't go down too well.
I don't think you have interpreted some people's posts correctly. I have stuck up endlessly for Ramirez, but not to say he MUST start, just that he shouldn't be slagged because he has in fact, done ok and is a good player and a saints player.
LFF, this is a very good post and the part about the manner of the criticism is spot on. I have never had a problem when someone posts a criticism of a players performance (though I may not always agree), I just will alwys stand up and have a pop back when it gets OTT, as you said when someone says "crap" and "sell him". Ps. I haven't got any shares in him
Yesterday, Ramirez was a luxury player - gave the ball away, and didn`t make anything of the opportunities that came his way. We were crying out for Lallana (or Punch) to come on - when he was subbed, Lallana did everything right - pressed the ball, kept it and scored. Ramirez is a very good player, but yesterday he just wasn`t at it.
The problem isn't the criticism. It is like I said on the other thread. If anyone dares say anything about 'the chosen one' aka Ramirez then they are immediately dumped into the 'fools that want him offloaded' bin. Ramirez has been championed before he even struck a ball and its as if there is a team online to pretect him. And I'm surprised Godders. Lallana has been much better than Ramirez this season and yes that does tell a story. The Man U game was like the difference between Le Tiss and Carlton Palmer. I'll keep my mouth shut and just wind the hammers up because the Saints fans will have no negative words spoken about their beloved (yet underperforming) future Messi. Same as the fools that slated Guly on the right wing last year yet he was brilliant on the right wing assists and play wise then when moved into the centre struggled. BRING ON THE HAMMERS
For all of us there are players that frustrate and players that we champion. You will know that I have been championing Morgan for a long time and have been deriding De Ridder but always with good reasons in both cases. TSS has summed up what prompted my post in that just to say: Ramirez is **** and we should offload him ASAP. is hardly the most intelligent way to start a debate. However I still stand by my assertion that Lallana has not progressed as well as others this season or as most of us had expected. I have not however lost my respect for him or my hopes that he will improve and I do appreciate that injuries have held him back. What I would never say about Adam or any other Saints player is: He is **** and we should offload him ASAP.
But that is my point. Who is saying offload him ASAP? The answer is no-one but many that seem to have ~Ramirez tinted glasses are labelling anyone who dare criticise as wanting him out ASAP. Anyone who has said that (offload ASAP) is a fool. The majority are very clearly saying (quite simple) they think he is not first 11. Very very different yet it gets some very aggressive replies for some strange reason. The only time people hacve said they would take money is because of other threads and rumours and they are not saying cut him loose now. Purely that based on what they have seen so far that they would accept £x. People should start reading posts properly or we are all to be labelled in the GMI camp.
I'm afraid it's true ImpsSaint. I've looked up the poster's comment and although he didn't say ASAP [my faulty memory] he did say to get rid of him in the summer for £20M, which is as quickly as a club can, in any case. The rest was entirely accurate. There is one irregularity - if a £12M player is no good, how on earth is he suddenly worth £20M..? It's an example of the warped logic where I wish posters would check themselves from posting and think about what they're about to write. It might save them a few blushes the next day and it's the sort of comment that we used to be spared on this forum. By all means criticise, but let's return to a smattering of reason and logic behind debate that used to be apparent, on this forum, in spades. I think StG is entirely right to point this out and I think he also shares my desire to have the forum return to a better level of debate. I too want the ya-boo style criticism to stop before it gains a foothold on here.
Well let me make my opinion well known then clearly so no-one jumps down my throat again. I think he should be squad player. Not starting. I would sell him for £20m from what I have seen HOWEVER I would not be touting him for sale. Just I would consider the possibility that maybe £20m could be spent elsewhere and that maybe Davis and Rodriguez have unknowingly sorted out that area. My opinion but I am not sayng offload him ASAP as whoever else said. Just clarifying what me opinions are. And yes I do have 20 on the back of my shirt so maybe I do favour the captain a little
I had to chuckle with this Impsaint. As you so clearly and kindly detailed your stance below and I did elsewhere, I will re-iterate mine (incase you didn't read it properly on the other thread). I have never said Ramirez MUST start. I think he is a quality player and started my defence of him when words like "crap" and "get rid" were used. I also have previously defended him when people (not you) have said he hasn't played well at all this season and hardly contributed.
Hypothetical, I know, but how well would Rambo be playing now, if he hadn't picked up that career threatening injury earlier on, you can't tell me that it has had no effect, even though he has fully recovered, mentally he will be trying to avoid a repetition, I don't think some appreciated how serious it actually was.
Just a couple of objective comments from neutral observers from todays News Now website regarding Saturday's game: With one-time Liverpool target Gaston Ramirez excelling in the front line and Rickie Lambert continuing to offer performances that belie his chunkiness, the Saints have a trio of attackers who should be able to sustain their club in the top half of the table. Ditto Gastón RamÃrez, ................ Like an even more languid version of Francesco Totti, the Uruguayan seemed able to tune down the pace of the whole game a couple of bars when in possession â brushing off attempts to rob him with the shimmy of a shoulder here, an angling of his back muscles there, while all the time looking to pick pinpoint passes.
Why does everyone go on about Lambert....he is not chunky, he is a big lad. No amount of exercise or dieting will make those lovely shoulders any narrower. Nice that someone appreciates our Gaston...he is a good supplier of the ball...just needs to sharpen up his finishing and all will be well.
Strewth Guys Why all the yelling.........As the OP stated there are people who seem to thrive on the blame culture and slag players off for not living up to their price tag and scoring loads of goals or assists. Yes, they do tend to pick on individuals. What they have often forgotten is that there is 9 other outfield individuals who have just as much responsibility as to what is actually happening on the pitch. Some players, their rolls are more defined and when they try something that doesn't come off it is seen as giving the ball away or miss controlled or just bad play. Often it is other players just not reading a situation although that is getting less and less as more games are played. So my conclusion to those people is that they do not see or understand or lack experience in analysing a high standard of Football. The vast majority see through and understand the finer points of the game and clearly criticise players with out necessarily picking on one individual. Guly's miss on Saturday was a prime example of individual criticism on another thread similarly to Ramirez's miss was but more critical of the latter. Again accepting the difficulties of the situation but comparing the time each had, so a balanced view. We all have to remember when we talk of today's "team" we are really talking about today's squad. As usually any one of the bench men could be used in the starting line up and would give a good account of themselves. Let us please try and remember this when we think of criticising any one individual. Let us remember we have a manager whose job it is to know who is the best to put on the field of play on any given day and when. None of us have those skills although we all think we do....as I have said before on previous threads each game that is played there is on average 25/40000 potential managers watching each and every game. It is rare that they will all agree on any single individual..........
