There was fencing and or cages at all major football grounds in the country,so why were there no similar disasters at these other grounds?.better policing is the answer. Refresh your memory. http://www.liv.ac.uk/footballindustry/hborough.html
Page, it was just an accident waiting to happen. The police could have forced another 10,000 through that gate and the disaster would still have been averted had there been no cages, as they would have spilled on to the pitch.
What David Schofield said is quite true, if there weren't any hooligans (every club not just Liverpool) in the 70s and early 80s then there wouldn't be any need for those fences. Even with the fences though, this whole thing could've been avoided had the Police been better organised, had the stadium got a proper safety certofocate I don't think he's trying to pain Liverpool fans as hooligans either, I think he's saying that nearly every club in England had their fair share of hooligans in that time.
You just dont get it do you,there was hundreds of matches played in England while fencing was statutory,no other disaster occured during that era except at Hillsborough. And the reason it happened was bad policing and a neglect of duty by the commanding police officer in charge at Hillsborough on the 15th of April 1989.
But hes wrong about police innocence in the events that day(as stated in his first post on the thread).
Page, please try and answer this question dispassionately. If everything else happened on the day, in exactly the same way, exactly the same time, but there were no fences/cages, would those 96 people have died?
We are discussing it. People need to know the truth, if the truth isn't quite what we expected then we have to live with that- but at least we'll know. Whatever your intention, your phrasing sounds like provocation masquerading as concern. If it's not meant to be, I apologize, but maybe you still need to learn when to leave well alone. If it is a wind-up then I pity you.
He's defo wrong on that bit, the police were the main reason 96 people died that day. Even the Taylor report acknowledged that.
Assuming that you are actually being serious, and not just trying to wum, it seems clear that you have not read or understood the Taylor Report. To enlighten you: - Point 183 of the Interim Report clearly states that the police plan was to let fans "find their own level" within the cages. In other words the police just planned to let them go into the cages and assumed the cages would keep them under control. - Point 37 of the Taylor Report noted that segregation did not combat hooliganism, as the genuine hooligans simply worked out ways to get around it such as pretending to support the other team. - Point 45 of the Taylor Report blames segregation for increasing the hooliganism issue by exacerbating the divisions between the fans. In other words, the presence of the cages at Hillsborough did nothing to address hooliganism, and may have actually increased it. They also acted as an excuse for the police to avoid actively managing the crowds. The police just assumed the fans would effectively police themselves by filling the cages in an orderly manner. Had the cages been actively policed and assessed, the tragedy would not have happened. To summarise: the police were at fault, not the cages, and your argument is wrong.
To summarise swarbs : You've missed the bleeding point. I am NOT saying that Hooliganism on the day played any significant part in the disaster, if any at all. I am saying that the cages were there as a direct consequence of Hooliganism for two decades, and again by ALL Clubs not pointing the finger at LFC Fans
That's one interpretation. The other interpretation is that the cages and fences were just a passive measure used by the police to help them avoid actually tackling the problem of identifying, detaining and banning hooligans. As the Taylor Report said, the cages didn't prevent hooliganism, and actually increased tensions and problems between fans. And at Hillsborough, the presence of the cages acted as an excuse - the police didn't have any officers policing the pen, the policy was just to stick the fans in there and leave them to it. So I would argue that if the police had developed proper tactics for combating and preventing hooliganism, rather than passive control tactics, then they wouldn't have had to resort to cages, and Bradford, Hillsborough and other injuries and deaths due to fences would not have happened.
Again,If you study the Taylor report you'll find that people were in seious danger of being crushed to death outside of the ground on Leppings Lane itself due to the build up of fans that the commanding police officer allowed to happen(no fences there then David),he then gave the order to open the gate and his officers funnled 1000's of fans down an 8ft wide tunnel onto the already packed central terrace which led to 96 deaths. So all in all people would have died outside the ground if he had'nt opened the gates,but the build up of supporters outside was down to his bad and wreckless judgement and organisation.
Good post Swarbs. I think it's pretty straight forward, the police caused this tragedy. The removal of fences may have helped prevent it but they certainly weren't the cause.
No David, you've missed the point. I'm saying the segregation policy that preceded the cages was a result of poor policing and a failure to combat the problem. Segregation increased tensions, and thus fences were needed, hooligans climbed over these so they built cages, hooligans broke the cages so they made stronger ones. Had the police tackled hooligans properly, there would have been no need for this arms race and Hillsborough, and all the other cage related injuries and deaths, would have been avoided. Which is pretty much what the Taylor Report said when it recommended all seater stadiums with proper policing and no fences....
