Season expectations

[Dier Hard]

In fairness to Poch/ players, I felt we did actually want to win that league cup semi final vs Chelsea last season, we fielded a strong team in the first leg that won 1-0 but in the second leg Kane and Alli were injured whilst Son was away with South Korea, three key attackers was always going to make it a tough ask. It sucked big time as the team still battled away but eventually lost on penalties. Full first team and we probably could’ve won that. Whether we’d have beaten City in the final we’ll never know but it felt to me as if we really did want that trophy instead of going into the cup half heatedly.

Those three also missed our FA cup defeat to Palace too. Poch did rotate a bit more in that but I think if we had stronger options available we maybe could’ve tinkered with selection to have given us a better chance.

I hope this season we can remain injury free, at least compared to last season where we dealt with so many injuries/ absences to key players at crucial times. It really does feel like it’s more or less a must win this season in terms of a trophy though, something to finally put on the players and Poch’s CV’s.

 

[Spurf]

Not really sure how you come to that conclusion when:

League cup semi final vs Sheff Utd - 2 goals.

Fa cup semi final vs Chelsea - 2 assists (one of them being one of the best assists you’ll ever see).

FA cup semi final vs Utd - assist. The same game that Dembele got muscled off the ball by Pogba resulting in Utd’s equaliser.

It's really no good quoting what are isolated events. Of course Eriksen has provided spectacular goals and assists that's what he does and talking down Dembele at what was the end of his Spurs career just does not wash. I have heard no one on here suggest that Eriksen is not a top player. I agree he is a top player but it does not follow that he is a match winner when what is required is determination and sheer presence. There are many top players who have gone missing too often for example, Beckham, Owen, Rooney, compare them to say Lampard, LeTissier, Scholes, who usually did turn up when it mattered.

 

[The RDBD]

It's been devalued because its main purpose seems to be bloating the fixture schedule at the worst possible point in the season to do so, with two-legged semi finals in January at a time where the FA Cup is already bloating the fixture list, a final in february which means having to rearrange the league fixture that was supposed to be taking place at that time

It has always been that way, so nothing new there.

The difference is that the current max 4 extra CL games (6 if EL)
offset the 4 league games that have been lost in the PL era.

For those who remember 1981-82, having 4 league games
in hand over the rest at the business end of the season, because
of reaching the finals of domestic cups + UEFA SFs, is no fun at all.

 

[Dier Hard]

It's really no good quoting what are isolated events. Of course Eriksen has provided spectacular goals and assists that's what he does and talking down Dembele at what was the end of his Spurs career just does not wash. I have heard no one on here suggest that Eriksen is not a top player. I agree he is a top player but it does not follow that he is a match winner when what is required is determination and sheer presence. There are many top players who have gone missing too often for example, Beckham, Owen, Rooney, compare them to say Lampard, LeTissier, Scholes, who usually did turn up when it mattered.

“Dembele & Vertonghen have both shown such determination in cup games but our main playmaker has shown no such sense of urgency or commitment.”

I merely showed I disagreed with that statement as Eriksen, probably more than any current Spurs player, has delivered the most in those very cup games you speak of.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Not really sure how you come to that conclusion when:

League cup semi final vs Sheff Utd - 2 goals.

Fa cup semi final vs Chelsea - 2 assists (one of them being one of the best assists you’ll ever see).

FA cup semi final vs Utd - assist. The same game that Dembele got muscled off the ball by Pogba resulting in Utd’s equaliser.

...plus crucial goals in the CL.

But I do tend to agree with Spurf on this one. It is one of my few major criticisms of Spurs under Poch. Every team needs a sprinkling of players who have that fire in their belly, the high energy players whose presence on the pitch visibly causes team mates to raise their tempo. Our squad as it is is an unhealthy mixture of pretty placid, docile characters (Lloris, Davies, Winks, Son, Eriksen etc.) and others who still haven't learned the difference between passion and recklessness (Dier, Lamela, Aurier, Alli, Kane etc.). The B'mouth game last season springs to mind. It was a damning insight into how we haven't improved whatsoever in this regard since the battle of the bridge almost 3 years prior.

In fact, I would argue that the only player who has learned the fine line between passion and recklessness and generally toes that line well is a certain Danny Rose. The likes of Lamela, Dier and Alli would do well to learn from him. This is yet another reason why losing Rose at this stage would be a huge mistake.

The way N'Dombele 'celebrated' his goal was crucial, to my mind. Most new mega-money signings scoring a key goal on their home debut would have gone absolutely ballistic, and rightly so. The way he just turned and waved everyone back to the centre circle as if to say 'the job isn't done' was really, really impressive. It's that kind of steely determination that I feel we've lacked since Day 1 under Poch. If GLC can bring that too, over time we will be transformed as a team. Even if our overall quality and technical ability drops, our ability to manage games and - more importantly - manage big games - will improve exponentially.

 

[Dier Hard]

...plus crucial goals in the CL.

But I do tend to agree with Spurf on this one. It is one of my few major criticisms of Spurs under Poch. Every team needs a sprinkling of players who have that fire in their belly, the high energy players whose presence on the pitch visibly causes team mates to raise their tempo. Our squad as it is is an unhealthy mixture of pretty placid, docile characters (Lloris, Davies, Winks, Son, Eriksen etc.) and others who still haven't learned the difference between passion and recklessness (Dier, Lamela, Aurier, Alli, Kane etc.). The B'mouth game last season springs to mind. It was a damning insight into how we haven't improved whatsoever in this regard since the battle of the bridge almost 3 years prior.

In fact, I would argue that the only player who has learned the fine line between passion and recklessness and generally toes that line well is a certain Danny Rose. The likes of Lamela, Dier and Alli would do well to learn from him. This is yet another reason why losing Rose at this stage would be a huge mistake.

The way N'Dombele 'celebrated' his goal was crucial, to my mind. Most new mega-money signings scoring a key goal on their home debut would have gone absolutely ballistic, and rightly so. The way he just turned and waved everyone back to the centre circle as if to say 'the job isn't done' was really, really impressive. It's that kind of steely determination that I feel we've lacked since Day 1 under Poch. If GLC can bring that too, over time we will be transformed as a team. Even if our overall quality and technical ability drops, our ability to manage games and - more importantly - manage big games - will improve exponentially.

I think what you're essentially saying here though is more about the team as a collective than any one individual. And that's something I'd agree with, I've often said our mentality as a team in big games has often cost us (and that includes Poch in that collective too) but that's as a unit, not certain individuals.

I just personally don't agree with the notion that Eriksen doesn't turn up in big games, I've had debates with Spurly about this too but in my opinion there's no substance to the idea that Eriksen never/ rarely turns up. For sure, he was **** in the CL final but then who wasn't? When looking at individual feats in big games, Eriksen and Harry (maybe Dele too despite the past 12 or so months) are the only players that turn up more often than not in big games. I highlighted the latter stage cup games in the post you've quoted and as you've mentioned he's gotten crucial goals in Europe too, killing off Madrid, equalising away at Juventus, winning the game against Inter and providing a number of assists too. I'd say both Harry and Eriksen need players on the same page as them in order for the team to have success.

As for Ndombele, I think that celebration was expected. Realistically, despite being his debut, running off and celebrating a 70th minute equaliser against a side favoured for the drop probably wouldn't have looked too great, even though it was obviously a very special moment for him. I think any one of Kane, Eriksen, Lamela, Lucas etc would've done the same there.

Going forward, pretty much everyone needs to improve if we're to become successful but the additions of Tanguy, Sess and Gio will hopefully add that extra bit of quality to the side we've lacked which will then push the current crop onto performing at a better and more consistent level, with the end product resulting in a trophy of some sort. However, to go forward, we need to keep Eriksen otherwise that pushes us backwards.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Saw games like that, every season, since the start of the 2015 season.
Irrespective of the strength of the Spurs starting XI.

The real stat of importance is for the total of such games (where the
opposition goes 1-0 up and then attempts busparquet to the end) ,
how many pts do Spurs take come FT.

If total such games = 10, pts = 25, then that means the end results
(W/L/D) were 8/1/1.

I could live with stats like that year in year out.

That would be a very good outcome. If we score three times as many goals as we concede which is league winning form then the chance of the opponents scoring first is a quarter. So there would be likely to be about 10 games like that. If we get 25 points from those games we ought to get at least 95 points in total (because surely we should have at least the same outcome when we score first). So your conjecture implies we will win the league or come very close.

 

[PowerSpurs]

“Dembele & Vertonghen have both shown such determination in cup games but our main playmaker has shown no such sense of urgency or commitment.”

I merely showed I disagreed with that statement as Eriksen, probably more than any current Spurs player, has delivered the most in those very cup games you speak of.

Eriksen is bound to look worse in the bigger games. All creative players do. It's hard to be creative against a big team as there is less time and space.

 

[PowerSpurs]

I think what you're essentially saying here though is more about the team as a collective than any one individual. And that's something I'd agree with, I've often said our mentality as a team in big games has often cost us (and that includes Poch in that collective too) but that's as a unit, not certain individuals.

I just personally don't agree with the notion that Eriksen doesn't turn up in big games, I've had debates with Spurly about this too but in my opinion there's no substance to the idea that Eriksen never/ rarely turns up. For sure, he was **** in the CL final but then who wasn't? When looking at individual feats in big games, Eriksen and Harry (maybe Dele too despite the past 12 or so months) are the only players that turn up more often than not in big games. I highlighted the latter stage cup games in the post you've quoted and as you've mentioned he's gotten crucial goals in Europe too, killing off Madrid, equalising away at Juventus, winning the game against Inter and providing a number of assists too. I'd say both Harry and Eriksen need players on the same page as them in order for the team to have success.

As for Ndombele, I think that celebration was expected. Realistically, despite being his debut, running off and celebrating a 70th minute equaliser against a side favoured for the drop probably wouldn't have looked too great, even though it was obviously a very special moment for him. I think any one of Kane, Eriksen, Lamela, Lucas etc would've done the same there.

Going forward, pretty much everyone needs to improve if we're to become successful but the additions of Tanguy, Sess and Gio will hopefully add that extra bit of quality to the side we've lacked which will then push the current crop onto performing at a better and more consistent level, with the end product resulting in a trophy of some sort. However, to go forward, we need to keep Eriksen otherwise that pushes us backwards.

I think our mentality as a team is fine. I think we get more points and get further in cup competitions than we should because of our team ethic. We beat teams that are just below our quality more often than we should. But when we come up against teams that are slightly above our quality we find it harder to win. Because at that level it is the individual skill level that most often leads to a brilliancy or a mistake that decides the game.
I think that is why Poch usually makes a weird change for a big match. Taking more risk to improve the chance of winning.

 

[The RDBD]

That would be a very good outcome.

For games of said type.

So let us gather the stats (as I stated) specifically for such games.
I will put them in the "Season compass" article (should people wish to contend
which games were of this type) .

 

[Dier Hard]

I think our mentality as a team is fine. I think we get more points and get further in cup competitions than we should because of our team ethic. We beat teams that are just below our quality more often than we should. But when we come up against teams that are slightly above our quality we find it harder to win. Because at that level it is the individual skill level that most often leads to a brilliancy or a mistake that decides the game.
I think that is why Poch usually makes a weird change for a big match. Taking more risk to improve the chance of winning.

I think that in the two recent FA Cup semi finals we've lost, we've been on equal quality to the team that's beaten us. Whilst our stature isn't as big as Chelsea/ Utd, we've generally been of similar quality to both sides for about 4-5 years now, with each side finishing above one another at various times in the Prem. We don't/ didn't seem as confident in those types of games as we do when playing the same sides in the Prem and I think that's because we can't seem to handle the added pressure, hence why I question the mentality.

Pochettino hasn't helped us either, those weird decisions you mention are in my opinion poor decisions. Son at LWB is still quite possibly the worst one Poch has ever made as Spurs manager, while Son is ambidextrous, a primarily right footed wing forward playing left wing back when Ben Davies was left on the bench (Wimmer too, who was a left footed defender) was quite frankly bizarre/ dumb/ unnecessary. The only one that comes to close to that was thinking we could play a midfield of Mason, Carroll and Onomah away at Dortmund and expect anything... we got trounced 3-0.

As a collective it all needs to improve. Starting with better decision making from the manager, down to the players in the side not allowing the occasion to get to them. The added quality of Tanguy, Sess and Gio is also gonna help, although we need to ensure we don't lose Eriksen now because it kind of defeats the object of trying to improve the squad if we sell arguably the squad's best player.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I think that in the two recent FA Cup semi finals we've lost, we've been on equal quality to the team that's beaten us. Whilst our stature isn't as big as Chelsea/ Utd, we've generally been of similar quality to both sides for about 4-5 years now, with each side finishing above one another at various times in the Prem. We don't/ didn't seem as confident in those types of games as we do when playing the same sides in the Prem and I think that's because we can't seem to handle the added pressure, hence why I question the mentality.

Pochettino hasn't helped us either, those weird decisions you mention are in my opinion poor decisions. Son at LWB is still quite possibly the worst one Poch has ever made as Spurs manager, while Son is ambidextrous, a primarily right footed wing forward playing left wing back when Ben Davies was left on the bench (Wimmer too, who was a left footed defender) was quite frankly bizarre/ dumb/ unnecessary. The only one that comes to close to that was thinking we could play a midfield of Mason, Carroll and Onomah away at Dortmund and expect anything... we got trounced 3-0.

As a collective it all needs to improve. Starting with better decision making from the manager, down to the players in the side not allowing the occasion to get to them. The added quality of Tanguy, Sess and Gio is also gonna help, although we need to ensure we don't lose Eriksen now because it kind of defeats the object of trying to improve the squad if we sell arguably the squad's best player.

This is it.

We've come close to winning stuff only to come up very short in the biggest of games. That applies to the manager and a significant number of the playing staff

No more daft left wing backs or unfit centre forwards and maybe the team will perform more like in a league game?

 

[Spurlock]

plus we really need to pick up points at the Etihad/Anfield, way over due.


these are big psychological barriers and we need to upset these teams if we are to mix it with them this season

 

[SpursDisciple]

plus we really need to pick up points at the Etihad/Anfield, way over due.


these are big psychological barriers and we need to upset these teams if we are to mix it with them this season

This weekend is a good time to play City, hopefully catch them a little cold. Be a big marker if we can take something from the game - hell even give them a good game will be encouraging.

 

[Spurlock]

This weekend is a good time to play City, hopefully catch them a little cold. Be a big marker if we can take something from the game - hell even give them a good game will be encouraging.

We really need to take something off both teams.

Last season they did us home and away...it's a definite pointer as to where we are at if we can get something and if we are to be taken seriously or not

 

[Rocky blue army]

This weekend is a good time to play City, hopefully catch them a little cold. Be a big marker if we can take something from the game - hell even give them a good game will be encouraging.

We won't get anything from the game if Poch picks the same starting 11 from the villa game.

 

[Dier Hard]

I won’t overly judge too much on the game against City itself.

Both league games last season ended 1-0 to them. Close matches and especially at Wembley we had chances to score/ win the game. Ultimately though they finished 20+ points above us so whilst those games were close, it didn’t really indicate too much on the basis of the whole season.

Essentially we ‘should’ lose on Saturday. They’re a better team with home advantage but if we can go there and at least make it a good game, I think there can be positives to take.

It’s games like Watford away, Burnley away, Wolves at home etc that we need to ensure we take points from this season. Those are what really cost us last year and if we’re to close that gap on City, they’re the ones that’ll really count more so than the head-to-head fixtures against Pep’s side.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I won’t overly judge too much on the game against City itself.

Both league games last season ended 1-0 to them. Close matches and especially at Wembley we had chances to score/ win the game. Ultimately though they finished 20+ points above us so whilst those games were close, it didn’t really indicate too much on the basis of the whole season.

Essentially we ‘should’ lose on Saturday. They’re a better team with home advantage but if we can go there and at least make it a good game, I think there can be positives to take.

It’s games like Watford away, Burnley away, Wolves at home etc that we need to ensure we take points from this season. Those are what really cost us last year and if we’re to close that gap on City, they’re the ones that’ll really count more so than the head-to-head fixtures against Pep’s side.

Having a right back who doesn't cost us the opening goal due to a total brainfart would be an improvement on last season, especially since that exact sentence could be used for a number of matches

 

[Citizen Kane.]

I won’t overly judge too much on the game against City itself.

Both league games last season ended 1-0 to them. Close matches and especially at Wembley we had chances to score/ win the game. Ultimately though they finished 20+ points above us so whilst those games were close, it didn’t really indicate too much on the basis of the whole season.

Essentially we ‘should’ lose on Saturday. They’re a better team with home advantage but if we can go there and at least make it a good game, I think there can be positives to take.

It’s games like Watford away, Burnley away, Wolves at home etc that we need to ensure we take points from this season. Those are what really cost us last year and if we’re to close that gap on City, they’re the ones that’ll really count more so than the head-to-head fixtures against Pep’s side.

I was really impressed by our league performances against City. There is no question that last season our squad was in a poorer shape than it was in 2017/18 whilst theirs was stronger, yet despite this the results between the two sides were much closer in 2018/19. We were far less naive in both games, clearly did much more research into how to stop them and it almost paid off on both occasions.

 

[redwhiteandermblue]

I think what you're essentially saying here though is more about the team as a collective than any one individual. And that's something I'd agree with, I've often said our mentality as a team in big games has often cost us (and that includes Poch in that collective too) but that's as a unit, not certain individuals.

I just personally don't agree with the notion that Eriksen doesn't turn up in big games, I've had debates with Spurly about this too but in my opinion there's no substance to the idea that Eriksen never/ rarely turns up. For sure, he was **** in the CL final but then who wasn't? When looking at individual feats in big games, Eriksen and Harry (maybe Dele too despite the past 12 or so months) are the only players that turn up more often than not in big games. I highlighted the latter stage cup games in the post you've quoted and as you've mentioned he's gotten crucial goals in Europe too, killing off Madrid, equalising away at Juventus, winning the game against Inter and providing a number of assists too. I'd say both Harry and Eriksen need players on the same page as them in order for the team to have success.

As for Ndombele, I think that celebration was expected. Realistically, despite being his debut, running off and celebrating a 70th minute equaliser against a side favoured for the drop probably wouldn't have looked too great, even though it was obviously a very special moment for him. I think any one of Kane, Eriksen, Lamela, Lucas etc would've done the same there.

Going forward, pretty much everyone needs to improve if we're to become successful but the additions of Tanguy, Sess and Gio will hopefully add that extra bit of quality to the side we've lacked which will then push the current crop onto performing at a better and more consistent level, with the end product resulting in a trophy of some sort. However, to go forward, we need to keep Eriksen otherwise that pushes us backwards.

The player whose presence correlates with failure in the biggest games is Kane.