Scottish Independence

[Leo]

I happen to believe that they will probably get both a negotiated entry into the EU and some form of currency union with sterling though it will be without any lender of last resort basis and therefore submit "independent" Scotland to fiscal policy set by westminster but it will be ok for Salmonds ego. The fact is that this is opinion only and the same goes for when any of the so called experts state these opinions. Come on Bolton... Levrat in his article uses the "imagine" word oh so regularly indicating that much of the article is "imagination", not so authoritative then eh....???

I agree Aberdeen - surely most people would want to see Scotland admitted to the EU if that is what they want. Also I am sure that a currency union with rUK is negotiable - even though it actually means giving control of interest rates and money supply to a foreign government who has no "duty of care" towards them and will inevitably be bound to do what is right for rUK whether or not Scotland wants it.

What has irritated me in this debate though is the way the Yes campaign do not have the balls to accept that there are negatives and difficult hurdles to overcome in the future. They blithely claim that everything is bound to turn out all right and sneer at anyone who raises perfectly valid questions - as if questioning a major change is not the right thing to do.

Part of my career was investing in companies. People would come along and claim all sorts of wonderful things they had invented, got a license for or developed and wanted your money to go further. My job was to test those claims, assess the risks and to decide how much optimism / pessimism was built into their forecasts. You did this by questioning them to make sure they had fully assessed the risks and had contingency plans and alternatives if their hoped for solutions did not work. Scottish independence is a similar case - it needs to be undertaken by people with their eyes wide open and telling the truth to people they want to "invest" in this new future - their fellow Scots

 

[aberdeenhornet]

Leo. It would appear to me that the Yes campaigners are a diverse bunch of folk with their heads in the clouds not looking for credible solutions to real problems rather some nirvana which is just what you'll get as a promise from the leaders of this campaign though with no foundation in how all the promises will be achieved. I get angry at people claiming poverty in the UK, indeed my daughter could claim poverty as she's on minimum wage and requires parental support despite graduating and being 23 years old. That's not the systems fault, its my fault as a parent and her individual choice. We have safety nets in this country that are ample if folk use them properly and its the expectation of being given rather than earning the i'pad,pod,pid whatever that is such a shame in this society.
I hope above all hope there is a No result but will not hold my breath. The danger of nationalism is massive, its always negative, always leads to blame of "foreign" nations for individual woes rather than encouraging a spirit of individual accountability. It will be a shame to be forced to leave Scotland as it really is a beautiful country with many wonderful people, unfortunately there are also a large number of bigots who look like they may well get the power they seek and wil bleed the country dry until it ends up in significant conflict with England.

 

[Spurf]

Let's just consider what Independence for Scotland means. There is all this talk that YES fails to provide answers to questions of currency and EU etc. This is to misunderstand what the referendum is about. Whether that misunderstanding is deliberate (i.e. political) or through ignorance is for those who espouse these positions to explain.

None of these questions have a specific answer until Scotland becomes Independent and elects a government. Just as no specific answers can be given for the UK on many issues such as the EU, immigration, education or the NHS to name a few.

Just as YES cannot answer neither can the Speaker or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or Mrs. Jones down the road answer for the UK. Neither indeed can David Cameron, or any other political leader.

The vote is to give freedom to Scotland as a nation to make it's own decisions. If people in Scotland vote against their own freedom because of fear or mistrust then they need to consider in whom are they placing their trust for their country.

How will Scots face the world with their heads high after saying NO to Independence. They will be a laughing stock. Too wee and too stupid will ring in their ears.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

Let's just consider what Independence for Scotland means. There is all this talk that YES fails to provide answers to questions of currency and EU etc. This is to misunderstand what the referendum is about. Whether that misunderstanding is deliberate (i.e. political) or through ignorance is for those who espouse these positions to explain.

None of these questions have a specific answer until Scotland becomes Independent and elects a government. Just as no specific answers can be given for the UK on many issues such as the EU, immigration, education or the NHS to name a few.

Just as YES cannot answer neither can the Speaker or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or Mrs. Jones down the road answer for the UK. Neither indeed can David Cameron, or any other political leader.

The vote is to give freedom to Scotland as a nation to make it's own decisions. If people in Scotland vote against their own freedom because of fear or mistrust then they need to consider in whom are they placing their trust for their country.

How will Scots face the world with their heads high after saying NO to Independence. They will be a laughing stock. Too wee and too stupid will ring in their ears.

Oh behave!!! Of course there are answers and how patronising to say if Scotland stands up for its right to be a continuing success by showing intelligence at the polls it would be a laughing stock, total rubbish!!! And as for freedom I didn't realise we were imprisoned or under slavery... as I say behave and lose the braveheart drivvle....

 

[hornethologist a.k.a. theo]

I've enjoyed this debate without having much to contribute towards it. If the Scots vote yes, I wish them well though it will feel a little strange that one or two friends will live in another country. I think it's easy to see, even in England, how people become frustrated by government from a distance. I lived in Whitstable for a few years where one of its four councillors was the only Labour representative on Kent County Council. Needless to say decisions, including critical ones like the development of Whitstable Harbour, were taken by an executive committee in Canterbury and found little favour with the residents of Whitstable, whatever their political persuasion. Rural Hampshire is much the same. For example, is it any coincidence that designated gypsy sites are located about as far from Winchester as it's possible to get without crossing into adjacent councils?

 

[Spurf]

Oh behave!!! Of course there are answers and how patronising to say if Scotland stands up for its right to be a continuing success by showing intelligence at the polls it would be a laughing stock, total rubbish!!! And as for freedom I didn't realise we were imprisoned or under slavery... as I say behave and lose the braveheart drivvle....

Truth hurt does it?

 

[Leo]

You have to laugh again - the Yes campaign has gone on and on about the No campaign having negative tactics and talking Scotland down - and now they would have you believe that if Scotland chooses to continue a glorious tradition of nationhood within a larger Union they would be a laughing stock. How does that work when so many countries have chosen to do the same within the EU - and even the Yes campaign want that. Yes camp desperation

 

[HaslemereKev]

Let's just consider what Independence for Scotland means. There is all this talk that YES fails to provide answers to questions of currency and EU etc. This is to misunderstand what the referendum is about. Whether that misunderstanding is deliberate (i.e. political) or through ignorance is for those who espouse these positions to explain.

None of these questions have a specific answer until Scotland becomes Independent and elects a government. Just as no specific answers can be given for the UK on many issues such as the EU, immigration, education or the NHS to name a few.

Just as YES cannot answer neither can the Speaker or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or Mrs. Jones down the road answer for the UK. Neither indeed can David Cameron, or any other political leader.

The vote is to give freedom to Scotland as a nation to make it's own decisions. If people in Scotland vote against their own freedom because of fear or mistrust then they need to consider in whom are they placing their trust for their country.

How will Scots face the world with their heads high after saying NO to Independence. They will be a laughing stock. Too wee and too stupid will ring in their ears.

Out of interest... you say these answers will be revealed after the vote, once Scotland becomes independant, a new government etc... but what if the Scottish folk vote yes, but do not like these answers once answered? There would be no going back. Surely these should be answered now so the voters go into the referendum with their eyes wide open rather than head in the sand, assuming everything will be ok because a politician and a few yes-men said so?

I've stayed out of this as I don't mind admitting I don't know enough to get into this discussion, I just find it strange how many questions remain unanswered in the hope it will just all work out

I honestly believe they should vote NO this time around... until the public know more of what an independant Scotland will look like

 

[zen guerrilla]

What happens to Alex Salmond if there is a no vote, does he get charged with treason?

 

[Leo]

What happens to Alex Salmond if there is a no vote, does he get charged with treason?

No - as he will have secured the Union for another generation at least. He should be admitted to the House of Lords

 

[Spurf]

Out of interest... you say these answers will be revealed after the vote, once Scotland becomes independant, a new government etc... but what if the Scottish folk vote yes, but do not like these answers once answered? There would be no going back. Surely these should be answered now so the voters go into the referendum with their eyes wide open rather than head in the sand, assuming everything will be ok because a politician and a few yes-men said so?

I've stayed out of this as I don't mind admitting I don't know enough to get into this discussion, I just find it strange how many questions remain unanswered in the hope it will just all work out

I honestly believe they should vote NO this time around... until the public know more of what an independant Scotland will look like

To be frank I am surprised people find this difficult to understand.

1. We are voting for a system of government, we are not voting for policies or parties.

2. Nobody knows what policies the UK will adopt after the next election until that election is held. Then you vote for the policies you want. An Independent Scotland will do just the same. THEREFORE how can you know what policies will be until AFTER the referendum.

3. Questions that will be negotiated between rUK & Scotland AFTER the referendum cannot by definition have answers before that referrendum unless there were pre-negotiations, which Cameron made clear at the start that he would not do.

4. The question being asked boils down to, does Scotland want Westminster to make the decisions or does it want to make the decisions for itself.

Quite frankly I am amazed that politicians are able to fool people with their spin and asking questions that they know full well cannot be answered. I think people in Scotland are now pretty much aware of this, apart from the sad cases who are still unable to make up their minds because they have not acquainted themselves with the available information.

 

[Spurf]

You have to laugh again - the Yes campaign has gone on and on about the No campaign having negative tactics and talking Scotland down - and now they would have you believe that if Scotland chooses to continue a glorious tradition of nationhood within a larger Union they would be a laughing stock. How does that work when so many countries have chosen to do the same within the EU - and even the Yes campaign want that. Yes camp desperation

You see it is comments like this that make me refer to you as a politician. You know full well that the countries in the EU are all independent and have their own government to negotiate EU business for them.
What YES wants is an Independent Scotland and friendly co-operation within the British Isles just as Ireland does. That is not the same as a devolved parliament the powers of which can be taken back at any time, just as the Lords did recently with wind energy.

What is Glorious about this Union btw?

 

[HaslemereKev]

To be frank I am surprised people find this difficult to understand.

1. We are voting for a system of government, we are not voting for policies or parties.

2. Nobody knows what policies the UK will adopt after the next election until that election is held. Then you vote for the policies you want. An Independent Scotland will do just the same. THEREFORE how can you know what policies will be until AFTER the referendum.

3. Questions that will be negotiated between rUK & Scotland AFTER the referendum cannot by definition have answers before that referrendum unless there were pre-negotiations, which Cameron made clear at the start that he would not do.

4. The question being asked boils down to, does Scotland want Westminster to make the decisions or does it want to make the decisions for itself.

Quite frankly I am amazed that politicians are able to fool people with their spin and asking questions that they know full well cannot be answered. I think people in Scotland are now pretty much aware of this, apart from the sad cases who are still unable to make up their minds because they have not acquainted themselves with the available information.

Quite franky I am amazed you are taken in by the spin of the yes campaign. You sound like a politician yourself. Oh it doesn't matter what the future holds.... As long as we no longer part of Westminster. You really think the Scottish government, however it looks, wont just be self-serving as well?

I would never vote for something unless they state clear objectives, and how they actually expect to achieve this

If Scottish independence is best for scotland, then good luck and go for it. It just seems all a bit rushed and they'll just have answers later, thinking it doesn't really matter...but don't worry, a yes-man has said it'll all be ok

 

[wear_yellow]

I wonder how long it would be before the people of Aberdeen ask for indepence after they get fed up with producing all the wealth and yet have no say in the government to the south? Political elites are political elites, it makes no difference as to what nationality they are.

 

[Spurf]

Quite franky I am amazed you are taken in by the spin of the yes campaign. You sound like a politician yourself. Oh it doesn't matter what the future holds.... As long as we no longer part of Westminster. You really think the Scottish government, however it looks, wont just be self-serving as well?

I would never vote for something unless they state clear objectives, and how they actually expect to achieve this

If Scottish independence is best for scotland, then good luck and go for it. It just seems all a bit rushed and they'll just have answers later, thinking it doesn't really matter...but don't worry, a yes-man has said it'll all be ok

Speechless

 

[aberdeenhornet]

What Germany couldn't achieve with the jackboot it achieved with Brussels. We all know that the "independent" governments of the likes of Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain have oh so much control over fiscal EU policy.... I'm beginning to think Spurf that you are just playing devils advocate, you haven't listened to a thing said by anybody if it doesn't concur with your beliefs. All everybody else asks for is reasoned policy and action plans something that is totally lacking from the indies....Unfortunately this spot 500 miles from Sussex is full of uneducated skirt wearing saltire painted ignoramus's who couldn't give a damn about economic prospects or how a country needs to plan to develop and as such I see a very high chance of desperate times ahead.

 

[Spurf]

What Germany couldn't achieve with the jackboot it achieved with Brussels. We all know that the "independent" governments of the likes of Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain have oh so much control over fiscal EU policy.... I'm beginning to think Spurf that you are just playing devils advocate, you haven't listened to a thing said by anybody if it doesn't concur with your beliefs. All everybody else asks for is reasoned policy and action plans something that is totally lacking from the indies....Unfortunately this spot 500 miles from Sussex is full of uneducated skirt wearing saltire painted ignoramus's who couldn't give a damn about economic prospects or how a country needs to plan to develop and as such I see a very high chance of desperate times ahead.

I beg to differ, I have and I will. Are you another who fails to understand what this referendum is about?

I am certainly not playing devils advocate on this subject at all.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

I beg to differ, I have and I will. Are you another who fails to understand what this referendum is about?

I am certainly not playing devils advocate on this subject at all.

Understand completely what its about, live and breathe Scotland and until I can move away will have to live with the consequences.

 

[aberdeenhornet]

I wonder how long it would be before the people of Aberdeen ask for indepence after they get fed up with producing all the wealth and yet have no say in the government to the south? Political elites are political elites, it makes no difference as to what nationality they are.

We already are!!! Independence for Grampian, independence for Shetland, independence for Speyside, pesky Edinurghans will not have our oil or whisky....

 

[Leo]

You see it is comments like this that make me refer to you as a politician. You know full well that the countries in the EU are all independent and have their own government to negotiate EU business for them.
What YES wants is an Independent Scotland and friendly co-operation within the British Isles just as Ireland does. That is not the same as a devolved parliament the powers of which can be taken back at any time, just as the Lords did recently with wind energy.

What is Glorious about this Union btw?

What is it with you and politicians? You obviously like them or would not trust your future to them in uncharted territory. I have told you time and again that I have no political allegiance, don't really care about the outcome of the referendum as it affects Scotland (but am annoyed it could impact rUK without our say so) and have spent a business career with expertise in finance, economics, statistics and investing. Skills I learnt there have taught me how to uncover and expose the sort of bullsh*t peddled by the Yes campaign. They want independence and do not care how they get it. In this debaate, away from the politicians I thought mistakenly I might find some good reasons behind the Yes campaign. I have not.

The particular point that made you level your umpteenth attack on my integrity was to throw back at you the type of rhetoric your side have used. You accuse the opposition of using scare tactics and then you warn your fellow Scots that if they do the right thing and instead vote NO they will somehow be belittling Scotland. If that is not Yes campaign politics and spin then I am a dutchman.

The Union btw has led to a country with terrible weather and no real resources until oil becoming part of a world leading entity for nearly 300 years - punching so far above its natural weight that it can call itself the 8th richest country in the world - all this whilst retaining an identity of its own within a friendly union. Glorious - oh yes.

The sad thing is I would bet two weeks from today you will have bulldozed the thinking half of Scotland into gaining independence.