"fanny spanners"
, never heard of those before, thanks Dan. Erm, where's Sir Barney when he's needed?..................<run like hell>Scottish Independence
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"fanny spanners"
, never heard of those before, thanks Dan. Erm, where's Sir Barney when he's needed?..................<run like hell>
It is an essential part of this forum's membership qualification ceremony, you have to be 'spiked' by Dex, and not blink..........
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In the early hours of Friday morning, when it was becoming evident that the vote had been lost, Alex Salmond changed his plans and instead of travelling to his constituency, he headed straight for Edinburgh, buying himself some time to work on his concession speech.
Having a career seemingly founded on just one issue (rather like Nigel Farage) that had been rejected by the electorate, he threw the toys out of the pram and resigned.
A couple of days later he was announcing that although it was too hot in the political kitchen, he was now going to stand outside and heckle through the window.
I wonder if he can make any money on the after dinner speech circuit or perhaps become a UN envoy to the Middle East like that other fraud...
Scotland will get the Devo Max that they were promised for a “No” vote because the three Westminster cronies would lose what little credibility they have North of the Border if they reneged on their pledge. What we English want to know is will we get the West Lothian Question answered?
Having a career seemingly founded on just one issue (rather like Nigel Farage) that had been rejected by the electorate, he threw the toys out of the pram and resigned.
A couple of days later he was announcing that although it was too hot in the political kitchen, he was now going to stand outside and heckle through the window.
I wonder if he can make any money on the after dinner speech circuit or perhaps become a UN envoy to the Middle East like that other fraud...
Scotland will get the Devo Max that they were promised for a “No” vote because the three Westminster cronies would lose what little credibility they have North of the Border if they reneged on their pledge. What we English want to know is will we get the West Lothian Question answered?
Being from west lothian I can answer the question for you !! Salmond has played a blinder and with having 2 years remaining as first minister whats the point on him continuing when he is not to stand again ? He would be holding a party that is now the 3rd biggest in membership in the uk back ! He also gave us the Scottish parliament before he quit in 2000 in 7 years he has had this time he has changed the politics in Scotland and gave us hope ! Back to the west lothian question ! I think that labour are the key holders here as they have majority of mp's in Scotland in Westminster election now with voting stratagy that will see labour on par with Tories up here then nothing stops the west lothian question being something of the past where there is none of the 3 major parties involved in uk / English politics ! There is talk in May of just declaring independence. Which I don't agree with as it should be democratic
Tam Dalyell has a lot to answer for in my opinion. Untill he started wittering on about it nobody actually gave a monkeys about Scottish MPs dealing with English issues. Now everyone's jumping on the bandwagon to complain about an injustice which, in reality, probably has very little impact. It's akin to having 100 people standing in a hospital queue awaiting emergency life saving treamtent and 80 of them complaining that the other 20 have a nice little stamp on their appotnment cards whilst they don't. I wish our elected MPs would show as much passion in trying to change things which really matter.
If as you say Mick there is a element who have the idea of just declaring independence in May a good strategy would be to all start learning Russian now as we know how much Putin likes to defend the interests of Russian speakers who declare Independence of their own accord. Joking aside I could not see that coming to anything as it would be the most self destructive strategy one could think of.
I think it's an opportunity to take the numbers you already have but find a more articulate and less openly nationalist figure to go to work for the next five years on the 20% who are probably turnable. Make the case about the real issues of Scottish strategy going forward, sort out the currency issue before a referendum and do all this on a foundation of friendship with the rUK rather than animosity towards it, then you will sway those in the middle. What was most of note in the following of the debate from the beginning was that I heard a few very articulate people speak from both sides who made good arguments and put them well, they were superb and yet none of them were Alex Salmond or Alistair Darling. I also believe Nicola Sturgeon is not the right person either. There is definitely a case for Scottish Independence but in my view the case was not made in the right way nor with the appropriate questions answered before the referendum, it was this in my view that led to AS having to make it a big bad Westminster thing as the work for the real case had not been put in place, it was a lot of flaky estimates and hopes. Had he gone to a bank with his white paper as a business plan he would not have got the backing he wanted.
I think it's an opportunity to take the numbers you already have but find a more articulate and less openly nationalist figure to go to work for the next five years on the 20% who are probably turnable. Make the case about the real issues of Scottish strategy going forward, sort out the currency issue before a referendum and do all this on a foundation of friendship with the rUK rather than animosity towards it, then you will sway those in the middle. What was most of note in the following of the debate from the beginning was that I heard a few very articulate people speak from both sides who made good arguments and put them well, they were superb and yet none of them were Alex Salmond or Alistair Darling. I also believe Nicola Sturgeon is not the right person either. There is definitely a case for Scottish Independence but in my view the case was not made in the right way nor with the appropriate questions answered before the referendum, it was this in my view that led to AS having to make it a big bad Westminster thing as the work for the real case had not been put in place, it was a lot of flaky estimates and hopes. Had he gone to a bank with his white paper as a business plan he would not have got the backing he wanted.
Many people now just want independence no matter the cost meaning if we **** it up it's only ourselves to blame but I disagree has to be viable for to improve standard of living and so on. 1 month ago massive bbc report on oil running out . Today a massive report on how we can extract more than we thought which I expected anyways ! I will always campaign for independence while it's a viable option . What this Indy ref has done to labour up here is unreal . The Indy ref is to labour the same as the poll tax to thatcher
I have been to Glasgow on a couple of occasions and on a Friday night after a skinful of Tennents Extra, they all speak Russian.
Salmond tried to do an Obama and play the “hope” card. It looks like everyone rushed to sign up soon as they heard he had quit. South of the Border, Miliband will be hoping that eighteen months of his “Cost Of Living Crisis” mantra now followed by six months of “Limitless Spending On The NHS” do not have the same effect.
I think it was as far away from the Obama hope for sure. It's not the fact he has retired that membership has went through the roof it's the fact there is so many unhappy people within the country that need there voices heard now. As far as salmond goes I didn't like him but he gave us a chance with the vote always delivered on his word and for a better Scotland what he has done to the budget up here is unreal keeping free prescriptions and free higher education which I feel could be lost now. Milliband is self destructing the Labour Party which is great in my opinion once more austerity kicks in from Tory / ukip coalition that looks inevitable more of us scots will want out as quick as possible . If anyone said and actually thought we couldn't survive they must wake up facts and figures speak for themselves. Cuts have started already and the biggest voter of no by age was 55+ now they have cut there heating allowance for the richest of them they can now live with it
It will be interesting to see how the rUK play it in as much as they can seek to create conditions which ensure a No vote is always in a majority, to do this they must deliver clear devo max and so demonstrate that Scotland is getting best of both worlds. They could also take another view which is that ultimately now regardless of whether it be in 5 years or 20 years that Scotland is likely to one day vote for independence. If this is the case they will be happy that now they can manage it better than had a Yes vote been returned last week. Trident is up for replacement soon and you can bet it will not be anywhere near Scotland as we cannot allow that bargaining chip to be held, they will obviously hope the national debt begins to fall as this will take away the threat that AS unfortunately made of walking away resurfacing.
As already stated I have no real issue with independence I would just like it to be amicable and I believe Scotland needs someone who can ensure that, as AS was likely going to end up with quite the opposite. It needs be remembered that the population of England is 56 million compared to Scotland's 5.5 Million, were ties severed in a way that brought resentment and trade issues and negotiations conducted in a feeling of animosity I feel Scotland would come off worst. If the rUK rejected the idea of Scotland as a friend it would have severe repercussions that a fledgling independent country could not afford. The trade that 56 can do with 5 is a lot more than the other way around, we would also hopefully still be a very influential member of the EU which Scotland would look to join, just the delaying of that could cause problems in itself.
If it were done in a spirit of look it's been good but we need to be in total control of our destiny but hope we can rely on your friendship and in return you will have our unquestioned support in return throughout this transition, then things could turn out alright. It needs the right politicians on both sides and at present I feel neither have them.
As already stated I have no real issue with independence I would just like it to be amicable and I believe Scotland needs someone who can ensure that, as AS was likely going to end up with quite the opposite. It needs be remembered that the population of England is 56 million compared to Scotland's 5.5 Million, were ties severed in a way that brought resentment and trade issues and negotiations conducted in a feeling of animosity I feel Scotland would come off worst. If the rUK rejected the idea of Scotland as a friend it would have severe repercussions that a fledgling independent country could not afford. The trade that 56 can do with 5 is a lot more than the other way around, we would also hopefully still be a very influential member of the EU which Scotland would look to join, just the delaying of that could cause problems in itself.
If it were done in a spirit of look it's been good but we need to be in total control of our destiny but hope we can rely on your friendship and in return you will have our unquestioned support in return throughout this transition, then things could turn out alright. It needs the right politicians on both sides and at present I feel neither have them.
Scotland as an independent nation will have to re-apply for member ship of the European Soviet Socialist Republic (the E.U. as you know it). So that is quite a time with no real currency and the prospect of joining the failing Euro project.
If the English had been able to vote, I am pretty sure that the positives that the UK gets from Scotland would have been heavily defeated and now thousands of Jocks would be looking to relocate to England to avoid Salmond socialism.
If Scotland had voted “Yes” most of England would have looked at it very philosophically and then laughed at Tiger Scotland as it foundered like Ireland.
Quarter moon you are really having a laugh you must not have looked into it and realise when you export more than you import you are a massive say in the e.u not the way the RUK are import more than they export . Blue The Clyde is only place capable of keeping trident but I am happy if you take them elsewhere but they are a massive bargaining chip . As to national debt osbourne is 75billion out and milliband can't remember to speak about it at a press conference ! Quarter moon your head is up your backside saying Scotland wouldn't survive ps fracking is about to begin that 99% of population effected didn't want but as I said before I hope the no voters are effected as house prices set to plummet which effects RUK as the Bank of England will adjust interest rates anyways !
These are all good points Mick and they will shape the debate and positioning of each side in the coming months and years. I have little doubt that Scotland will become independent in the next 30 years probably sooner, I would likely put it at around 15. My only real wish is that it's done peacefully as it has the potential on worst case scenario to become like Northern Ireland at it's worst, with a huge sectarian divide. At present the Yes's are in a clear minority of 55 - 45, I would imagine that for it to be a peaceful change you would need shift the figures not only enough to win a vote but to significantly win a vote by a figure likely 70-30. This would establish it not only as a technical win but a clear view of the majority. The worst outcome either way at the recent vote would have been a 51-49 as the margin causes no significant majority only a mathematical one.
Totally agree that the Scots will get independence, just a question of when really. It would appear that whilst the union is intact we will all be independent. Not sure how that will work. It will be interesting to see if UKIP can transfer their protest vote at the euro elections into some tangible gains in the General Election. If they do and as a result get a deal involving an in/out euro referendum and the result is out (which I don't think is a cut dried - the curse of the silent no's again) then the Scottish Yes campaigners can legitimately argue that a new referendum is required. Granted there's a lot of ifs there mick doonan but you're not without hope.
So, had there been a yes vote what would have changed? Who/what would have been affected and to what extent? When would it have happened? What currency would have been used and how would its value have been determined? Just a few of the big questions.
Let's get this sorted and see if there is a way independence can be gained amicably, without detriment to either party, and without any individual suffering.
With the brains on here I reckon we could put forward a discussion paper containing the facts, the implications (immediate, short, medium and long term) and highlight all the pros and cons, all problems to have proposed solutions/work rounds.
I'm sure all the pros and cons will have counter arguments but with the will to arrive at a solution, that can only be good in terms of getting it right.
So let's work on the assumption that independence has been decided and we have to find a way to make it work in the best way possible. Let's start with the most significant; leave out the less significant until we have a broad framework to work within. The framework is not immune to change if warranted.
Come on. Let's stop criticising the "idiots" that f**ed it up and do it properly.
Let's get this sorted and see if there is a way independence can be gained amicably, without detriment to either party, and without any individual suffering.
With the brains on here I reckon we could put forward a discussion paper containing the facts, the implications (immediate, short, medium and long term) and highlight all the pros and cons, all problems to have proposed solutions/work rounds.
I'm sure all the pros and cons will have counter arguments but with the will to arrive at a solution, that can only be good in terms of getting it right.
So let's work on the assumption that independence has been decided and we have to find a way to make it work in the best way possible. Let's start with the most significant; leave out the less significant until we have a broad framework to work within. The framework is not immune to change if warranted.
Come on. Let's stop criticising the "idiots" that f**ed it up and do it properly.
I am a boring, prosaic person who generally goes with the facts. I make no apologies.
Exporting more than you import is irrelevant to the argument. In order to join the EU, Scotland needs all the other member states to ratify their inclusion. That will not happen overnight. Look how long it is taking Turkey – they would love to join so that all their young unemployed could come over here and work because their basket-case economy cannot create jobs for them. If RUK quit the EU, we could still trade with them but get back control of our borders (apologies if that sounded very Nigel Farage). On Day One, Scotland would have been trading the Pound as a foreign currency with no lender of last resort (e.g. the Bank Of England) and no control over economic policy.
If Trident and the other military jobs all leave Scotland, how was Mr Salmond proposing to fill the jobs gap? Minimum wage call centre jobs?
The Irish tried the cut tax rates below everyone else to attract investment and they still found that all the young people quit the country and went elsewhere, just as they do from Scotland already. Scotland cannot escape from the demographic facts. Mr Salmond was going to pour limitless funds into public spending with no regard to how many immigrants he was going to need to sustain his public services. Granted they eat pies, smoke and drink in Glasgow so they do not live to get old, but the rest of the nation is ageing and that costs money (as it does in England, with ten times the population). An independent Scotland will become like France: dumbed down to the lowest common denominator – if everyone is poor, nobody notices. That is socialism, comrade...
I'm sorry but a currency union was only way forward for both countries ! As RUK trade more imports than exports so £ is then weak against other currencies ! Scotland however is one of only a few witch exports more than it imports so £ sterling being a international trading currency we would be circulating a £ on trades so then brings in more £ remaining strong ! ! Massive issue is eu membership but when the treaty of Lisbon was signed we all became a citizen of the European Union which a main point is they would have to revoke 5.3million citizenship which is totally against there code of conduct we would have been a member within 3 years and become a so called member in waiting so all trade is done the same. If I go back to currency union with say national debt £5bn a year to be paid back only in cu ! Trident with the Clyde the only option for 5 years we can force hand with asking to remove straight away which makes uk lose seat on security council massive bargaining tool there ! With removal of trident they say 1000 jobs would go but out of the 1000 only 27 have a uk address so that's that argument out the window Ron. Also mention of the Irish going bust they have only half of the opertunity that Scotland has with 20% of europes oil which suddenly appears much more now some magically appears this week ! But 25% of europes renewable energy . The whole world suffered as part of the meltdown not just the Irish . Ask your self why a conservative government paid all they millions on a campaign to remain "better together " when he only has one seat / mp in Scotland and will never have more than 3 at any one time is it because we are subsidised by England and we won't make it as a country ? Is it because we are such a drain on the economy ? Is it because the war machine needs oil to find the banks witch fund company's that fund arms and look we are In anbother war a week after we should have been gone out of top 100 company's that operate in uk Walmart is only one not linked to war machine !