Scottish Independence

[QuarterMoonII]

The basic promise to Scottish people made by both Gordon Brown and David Cameron had better be honoured. There is no time to lose in implementing this promise, they had better get cracking, but quick. Quite honestly, I do not think Westminster will be able to act with the necessary speed, trouble lies ahead methinks? England and Wales will be asking for a lot more self-government too, quite rightly. I have no idea whether or not Northern Ireland is happy with its lot, have to ask Beeforsalmon there!

Although the three party leaders agreed to what inducements they were going to offer Scotland, I think they will have quite a bit of trouble with their backbenchers, especially those with Northern constituencies.

The statistics about who gets what have been bandied about quite a lot but they did not get much press coverage. Out of British GDP, Northern Ireland gets the largest subsidy followed by Wales and then the often quoted Barnet Agreement for Scotland. England always does worst in such comparisons because the largest contributor to GDP is London and the South East; and the poorest parts of the Union per head are the other three countries.

 

[Bluesky9]

This really was a small issue made huge by salmond - Scotland would likely be ok but no better on it's own and likely the same together. Did it need dividing ? Did it need debating so divisively and aggressively by Salmond? and whose ambition was it in the first place? there are now police keeping apart two sides of Scottish people in Glasgow and that is the real tragedy.

Imagine if when Trident is replaced we make the current base obsolete, imagine we get the national debt down, Imagine shale gas or some possible renewable establishes itself and the price of oil falls, shall we ask again if Alex wants a referendum. I believe Scotland asked to join a union because it was bankrupt originally.

 

[OddDog]

Too often the case in politics - some **** thinks he is representing the people's views, when actually he is only serving his own interests.

 

[OddDog]

And as a final ironic note ................ the fulminating debut of Alibaba on the NYSE probably makes that company worth more than Scotland (OK I'm joking)

 

[Deleted 1]

Too often the case in politics - some **** thinks he is representing the people's views, when actually he is only serving his own interests.

Cameron's made a complete pig's ear of it too. He's now got the English spitting the dummy as well. You have to wonder - Eton charge somthing silly like 10k a term and turn out clueless fanny spanners like him and Clegg.

 

[Dexter]

QUOTE=Dan Starkey;7091423]Cameron's made a complete pig's ear of it too. He's now got the English spitting the dummy as well. You have to wonder - Eton charge somthing silly like 10k a term and turn out clueless fanny spanners like him and Clegg.[/QUOTE]

He is a poor reader of any game and a very moderate individual.

He was completely humiliated when he got his bluff called by the rest of the EU on the choice of Juncker as Commission President.

At least Sam Cam knows the recipe for Goulash..what an aptly named dish for the PM.

Prior to that he backed the ghastly and fraudulent Maria Miller for a whole week when it was patent her position was completely untenable..blind to his back benchers and the public yet again.

He then got played like a kinnor by Netanyahu,to whom he slurped and gushed around before addressing the Knesset in Hebrew proclaiming "solidarity".

Come the "skirmish" he was policitally egg bound by his previously obsequious behaviour.He didn't utter a peep,despite France and even the US chastising the jews,during the horrendous carnage.

Bearing in mind that 62% of Britons thought the Israeli offensive disproportionate and 52% described them as war crimes,it again shows how out of touch he is.He is currently warning the ICC,which is totally impotent without US and UK cash,against persuing any war crime agenda against his new bare bellend buddies.

He has topped that recently though with his total disregard of the SI.He thought it was a given NO vote...and it probably would have been but for him being at the helm.

Blue mentioned that we could have someone to wipe the floor with Salmond except Darling.Cameron refused any live debate and one can see why.Alex Salmond surprised everyone on the NO camp with his political awareness,ability and astuteness.

He was alone against Fleet Street,TV media,the whole of Westminster,BOE...even Cpt Hewitts boy mentioned holding his back slapping nonsense games up there....not an easy task.

This guy is a politician of the highest calibre who was foolishly underestimated..except perhaps by the PM who knew he would be taken apart by the Scot.Cameron's first desperate trip to Scotland culminated in a monologue to employees of the SW company where there would be be no embarrassing Q & A session..an exercise for the media only.

Our PM,in the latter stages,was reduced to begging with the Scots to stay within the UK and ultimately handed Salmond something he could never have imagined in mid August..a bribe to the NO vote and the Downing Street kitchen sink..a climb down and more humiliation.

David Cameron has an Australian advisor who clearly is out of tune with collaborative politics and it shows the PM for what he is...completely out of touch and clueless.

I have no Scots DNA whatsoever but their right to have this referendum was legit after the Edinburgh Agreement and rather than the Scot's getting hissy,it appears it is some of my kin on here who feel incensed that Scotland dare even consider leaving the Union.

A quick perusla through this thread more than justifies their discontent with the arrogance of us South of the Border.

Thoughts?

 

[Dexter]

This really was a small issue made huge by salmond - Scotland would likely be ok but no better on it's own and likely the same together. Did it need dividing ? Did it need debating so divisively and aggressively by Salmond? and whose ambition was it in the first place? there are now police keeping apart two sides of Scottish people in Glasgow and that is the real tragedy.

Imagine if when Trident is replaced we make the current base obsolete, imagine we get the national debt down, Imagine shale gas or some possible renewable establishes itself and the price of oil falls, shall we ask again if Alex wants a referendum. I believe Scotland asked to join a union because it was bankrupt originally.

Trivialising Scottish identity and calling it "a small issue" is exactly why this vote took place.What a dismissive and arrogant insight.

It wasn't wholly about Nationalism but more more about disillusionment and feeling disenfranchised.

The campaign was fought hard on both sides and to say that Salmond was responsible for splitting an alraedy split country is absolute naive nonsense.

All political campaigns are fought hard in all democracy's..that's no more than either side would expect anywhere in the world where the ballot box yields the glory alone.

You suggest after hundreds of years of conflict between Scotland and us that this was all down to Alex Salmond?...no one else through the years had ever felt a sense of identity in a country with a different indigenous language,culture and outlook?..that until 300 years ago was its own Kingdom...?..Wise up.

I do agree that this ends now and no repercussions are evident.

You mention the scenes in Glasgow with factions parted by a police line.That is unfortunate but bearing in mind Glasgow voted Yes it may be seen as slighty provocative that the No campaign decide to hold a flag waving rally.

Everyone has the right to celebrate a victory but common sense must prevail..you seem keen to blame this on Salmond as well...Akin to Man City parading the Premier Leagur Trophy outside OT..legitimate but hardly sensible.

Salmond irkes you greatly...probably because you underestimated him as well..all things evil to you despite 45% of Scotland agreeing with his vision.

Ultimately I'm happy with a No vote but would never dismiss,deride or denigrate any nations right to follow democratic and lawful means to achieve their ends.

Sometimes a sense of identity,ideology and following ones principles is worth more than a UK/ Jock quid/Euro in your pocket.

All about choice.

 

[Chaninbar]

Salmond was definitely underestimated though when he looks back at the campaign I don't suppose he'll replay the first TV debate very often. Fancy letting an absolute clown like Darling get the better of him. Not a great day in his political career.
A architect pal of mine reckons the best buildings he ever designs are the ones that don't get built. His reasoning being that he gets well renumerated for taking the design process to a certain stage but then doesn't have to deal with all the negativity with contractors, building users moaning, etc. I think this analogy sits well with Salmond. He'll never have to deliver on the promises he made, particularly with the economy. He managed to portray himself as different politician to the Westminster elite, more a man of the people. He likes horse racing so he can't be all bad. However I'd refer anyone with a warm feeling towards Mr Salmond to the BBC documentary You've Been Trumped. On the evidence of that programme I suspect Salmond would also have proven to be no different to the rest of them.

 

[QuarterMoonII]

This really was a small issue made huge by salmond - Scotland would likely be ok but no better on it's own and likely the same together. Did it need dividing ? Did it need debating so divisively and aggressively by Salmond? and whose ambition was it in the first place?

Imagine if when Trident is replaced we make the current base obsolete, imagine we get the national debt down, Imagine shale gas or some possible renewable establishes itself and the price of oil falls, shall we ask again if Alex wants a referendum. I believe Scotland asked to join a union because it was bankrupt originally.

I am not sure that I would call the right to self determination a “small issue”. I would not go as far as criticising Alex Salmond for the passion of an argument that he fundamentally believed in (“aggressively&#8221 even though much of his case had foundations on quicksand; and it was always going to be divisive because of the serious consequences of whichever verdict was delivered.

On a historical point, it depends on the union to which you are referring:

The currency union – Scottish Pound and the Pound Sterling but at a ridiculous exchange rate of 12-1 – started four hundred years ago when we got a Scottish king (King James VI of Scotland became King James I of England) in 1603 after Elizabeth I died childless. When I was at school that was called the “Union Of The Crowns”.

The Act Of Union 1707 is more likely the one to which you refer. The Scots were in dire financial trouble at that time, but I do not think that was the specific reason for the amalgamation of the two countries’ Parliaments. Scotland did benefit greatly, however, from access to England’s overseas trading empire. The size and importance of modern day Glasgow is chiefly down to this Union. At that time the Pound Sterling became the single currency of the Kingdom of Great Britain.


Putting a horse racing related slant on this debate, there is an interesting article in the Racing Post regarding the possible consequences of the “Yes” vote North of the Border. The Scottish racecourses commissioned a study that showed they would have suffered a massive loss of revenue and the immediate result would have been the closure of Kelso.

 

[Bluesky9]

I think small issue perhaps was not the correct phrase, what was meant was that people were not walking around with independence foremost in their mind, it was however occupying the most prominent position in Alex Salmond's mind. In an attempt to achieve his goal he divided more than was necessary into us and them. This division did not need occur, but did in my opinion as he had little else in his cupboard.

My particular dislike of him was for affronting intelligence of those voting.

When a separate country decline an offer of a currency union with you due to obvious financial reasons such as underwriting your institutions and currency regardless of your actions, they are not threatening or bullying they are reacting in the only way they could to protect their own interests. His claiming of bullying was divisive.

When he describes a unit of measurement as an asset and asks you to accept it as such, he is not straight.

He said if you don't allow me a union and so underwrite my spending and borrowing ultimately, I will walk away from the joint debt. He knows what that makes him in your average man's eyes.

When he states that RBS are under the thumb of 'them' in Westminster he forgets that those institutions must be based in the country in which their main business is based. Their announcement that they would have to move (only their head office) was again not bullying. He did not explain the legal position he just shouts ' they are bullying us ' and now Scotland has a bigger 'they' than they have ever had in their heads and a smaller 'us' , and that's a shame.

We will have to wait and see but I feel that it will take a while for Scotland to repair itself from his ambition, they are very much divided at present between yes and no. There was apparently Scottish flags being burned, that should never happen.

There was am intelligent argument to make, it needed making humbly and sincerely and it needed putting to the people in a spirit of togetherness. In my opinion he sensed that would not provide the result he was emotionally invested in and so created a battle between us and them which was not there before. The price may yet to have been seen fully.

It's all opinions and if you are an Alex Salmond fan I accept that but the views stated I do not think are naïve, they are backed up with reason and measured opinion, hopefully put well (mostly). I would have liked to have seen both sides agree before hand that regardless of their arguments they agree to place the unity of the people of Scotland first and foremost, in my opinion AS did most to separate and divide and that's why I have the opinion I do.

 

[MickDoonan]

Devastated isn't the word worst day of my life ! The no voters that now feel cheated and deceived I have to laugh at how can anyone believe westmonster lies but as I have told my friends and family don't complain to me but tell your son daughter and grand kids in the future that you voted no and regretted it now you've made your bed now lie in it ! Untill 2020 when you can then vote yes

 

[Bluesky9]

I do sincerely commiserate with you Mick as you clearly have a good deal of conviction that Scotland would be better off with independence, and you may actually be proven right or wrong eventually and I a not entirely sure either way myself, and it is devastating to have a deeply held vision that does not come to fruition . My issues have never been with anyone who believes that Independence is the way to go and it would have been fascinating to see what happened to both Scotland and indeed the RUK. My issue has always been with how divisive the referendum became and the legacy I believe that division will leave behind.

The only thing I would question however is you paint a picture of 'No' voters today walking around feeling cheated as if promised something which has not been followed through and regretting their choice. Now I am not in Scotland but it's not the view I am getting apart from Alex Salmond stating he believes people were cheated with the promises. He is suggesting that despite two years and hundreds of polls which all except one placed the 'no' vote in the majority, that people somehow were going to vote for independence but changed their mind on the back of false promises made in the last week. This offends logic and common sense. he knows full well that if we held the vote again next week he still would not win, nor next month.

I would have to ask if indeed their is a 'NO' voter feeling deceived how they can square that with intelligent reason. To feel deceived they would need to have had something be taken away which was promised and it hasn't been or what was promised not to have been followed through, to which the question to them would be what in your balanced view were you expecting to have changed from Friday morning to Sunday afternoon?

In 6 months or a years time they could feel cheated or not but not on Sunday afternoon, you would have to question if they are able to manage their expectations reasonably if that were the case.

 

[Dexter]

I think small issue perhaps was not the correct phrase, what was meant was that people were not walking around with independence foremost in their mind, it was however occupying the most prominent position in Alex Salmond's mind. In an attempt to achieve his goal he divided more than was necessary into us and them. This division did not need occur, but did in my opinion as he had little else in his cupboard.

My particular dislike of him was for affronting intelligence of those voting.

When a separate country decline an offer of a currency union with you due to obvious financial reasons such as underwriting your institutions and currency regardless of your actions, they are not threatening or bullying they are reacting in the only way they could to protect their own interests. His claiming of bullying was divisive.

When he describes a unit of measurement as an asset and asks you to accept it as such, he is not straight.

He said if you don't allow me a union and so underwrite my spending and borrowing ultimately, I will walk away from the joint debt. He knows what that makes him in your average man's eyes.

When he states that RBS are under the thumb of 'them' in Westminster he forgets that those institutions must be based in the country in which their main business is based. Their announcement that they would have to move (only their head office) was again not bullying. He did not explain the legal position he just shouts ' they are bullying us ' and now Scotland has a bigger 'they' than they have ever had in their heads and a smaller 'us' , and that's a shame.

We will have to wait and see but I feel that it will take a while for Scotland to repair itself from his ambition, they are very much divided at present between yes and no. There was apparently Scottish flags being burned, that should never happen.

There was am intelligent argument to make, it needed making humbly and sincerely and it needed putting to the people in a spirit of togetherness. In my opinion he sensed that would not provide the result he was emotionally invested in and so created a battle between us and them which was not there before. The price may yet to have been seen fully.

It's all opinions and if you are an Alex Salmond fan I accept that but the views stated I do not think are naïve, they are backed up with reason and measured opinion, hopefully put well (mostly). I would have liked to have seen both sides agree before hand that regardless of their arguments they agree to place the unity of the people of Scotland first and foremost, in my opinion AS did most to separate and divide and that's why I have the opinion I do.

I was prepared,like most others,to let this rest but since you are persuing your weird vendetta against Salmond on the Daily Thread I'll rebut.

You mention your "reason and measured opinion" but describe 45% of Scots,that voted,as BAM'S which is an acronym for below average mentality...charming,reasoned and measured no doubt.

You were even more incisive by suggesting that the No chaps would would take it on the chin and the "bams" might foment disorder...as I alluded to before it happened,it was the No camp who reduced Glasgow to a disgusting meltdown of law and order and racial abuse.

Suggesting a referendum needed to be fought "humbly and sincerely" is the stuff of Julie Andrews and frankly naively cringeworthy...you elaborate by suggesting that this yes/no referendum,deciding a Country's future after 300 years,should be fought in a "spirit of togetherness"...lost for words frankly with that utter bilge.

Further more Alex Salmond "..created a battle between them and us that was not there before.."

By your completely abnormal and obsessive one sided reasoned and measured contention one man has overnight decimated the bliss and harmony that Scotland cherished until this democratic and legal ballot...everything was peachy,just peachy.

Before this all the Scots held hands,made daisy chains and sang Kumbaya like a climatically challenged Woodstock.

Can you either find a vinyl couch and give the owner $250 an hour to examine your Salmond fetish or just stop stirring and creating division.We were all fine and cruising along until you started this.There was no need for this and the fault is all yours.This was a happy forum soaked and marinated in togetherness.Unity is what we should be striving for on here...not discord...lets hope our wounds heal quickly.

 

[MickDoonan]

Bluesky I have many friends and family that have said they can't believe that Westminster is renaging on devo max I said to them do you genuinely think they would give you it all answers resounding yes. I don't want devo max that is for sure as it leaves the snp in a horrible position !

What I want and hope will happen is that Tory/ukip coalition as I think labour is done and won't win election I want this as they will hit Scotland with a backlash like no other I genuinely believe times are about to get tough and worse than thatcher. The devo max means that we would control tax which weakens the snp . With projected cuts of £4bn a year the only way we can make it up is by cutting public services or raising tax. Which leaves whichever one they choose is unpopular ! I am completely angry with the over 55 age group that voted no as they have had all the benefits of nhs prescriptions education council houses bought and pensions . I can't believe that they have denied the youth this chance . We already pay more into coffers than we get back does anyone actully think that Westminster will raise this ??? Not a chance more austerity more foodbanks.

As for the divide it's left behind that divide was already here lurking and ready to pounce ! Alex salmond didn't divide the country the people of Scotland voted for the right to a referendum by voting snp into holyrood . The real divide here is racism bigotry sectornism religion and sadly rich/poor

I believe that in 2015 snp has majority in scotland with a ukip/Tory coalition
In 2016 snp majority in holyrood with referndum planned for 2020

Untill yesterday I was a member of the Labour Party and unite the union both memberships canceled and joined the snp on Thursday
Labour in Scotland had 13,000 members
Snp had 28,000 members
Greens 5,000 members

Today labour has lost over 60% of members
Snp gain 12,000 to 40,000
Greens gain 4,000
Ssp gain 3,000
Ssp have said that they want all members and voters to vote snp even tho it conflicts with there policies and the greens to have talks tomorrow !

 

[MickDoonan]

Another point is 16 year olds voting I think this is great after all they can work,pay tax , have a child buy a house but can't vote in a general election must change

 

[Ron]

Although my last post was (understandably) ignored I would like to interject at this point and say that, despite the extremely sensitive nature of this thread, I am really impressed by the overall conduct of the posters. Some strong opposing views, posted with conviction, backed by objective reasoning and an occasional touch of humour but steering clear of the sort of personal abuse that could easily have resulted in the thread degenerating into a slanging match.

Re your observation Dex that Blue clearly isn't a fan of Salmond, I think it is fair to say that Cameron isn't too popular either.

I sincerely hope that this all ends in a good way for all and only time will tell.

Congratulations to the posters

 

[Bustino74]

I knew it would all end in tears

 

[Cyclonic]

Can ya really trust a man who wears a dress? Opps, sorry dad.

 

[Bluesky9]

Although my last post was (understandably) ignored I would like to interject at this point and say that, despite the extremely sensitive nature of this thread, I am really impressed by the overall conduct of the posters. Some strong opposing views, posted with conviction, backed by objective reasoning and an occasional touch of humour but steering clear of the sort of personal abuse that could easily have resulted in the thread degenerating into a slanging match.

Re your observation Dex that Blue clearly isn't a fan of Salmond, I think it is fair to say that Cameron isn't too popular either.

I sincerely hope that this all ends in a good way for all and only time will tell.

Congratulations to the posters

I have to agree Ron, I think it's a good debate largely put in the way that we usually do within this forum in as much as reasoned points, conviction and a slice of humour. Dex is just on the edge and doing his best of making it personal towards me, but what can you do. My view is as it's been all along that although I think the two nations are better together, however, I also have little doubt Scotland could make a very good go of becoming a sustainable country, in my view the extreme view on both sides is wrong, Scotland would not become a utopia with oil revenues meeting every conceivable need and nor would Scotland collapse.

Thanks for your reply Mick, I think much of what you say about Labour being finished is likely. I disagree that Scotland will suffer a backlash from the Tories however as I don't feel they can afford to, many backbenchers may wish for such a thing and some may try and provoke, but the Govt will not be so foolish.

Another thing to say is bear a thought for us as at least you have a party you seem to genuinely believe in in the SNP, we have the Tory coalition which is pretty awful as they have demonstrated and yet have no opposition of any credibility in Ed Milliband's Labour. The vote we face at the next election is bad or bad.

By the way Dex I did not introduce this debate to the daily thread, Gaz introduced it, I simply commented on his remark before putting up a horse. The term Bam was used humorously as I love that Scotland has a word for the boisterous, shouty, ill thought through fools that every town and country has. It could equally apply to both sides, in fact the pictures from Glasgow on Friday showed clearly that both sides have their fair share of them. You are correct I dislike Salmond but I always qualify this with a reason, and he is putting himself up for that with his polarising position. As Ron wrote 'many are not fans of Cameron' or even indeed Darling either for that matter and I could not argue with them either that's for sure. It's a shame you have decided to personalise your contribution to the thread towards me rather than just the points made, but I can do nothing about that. I always think it should be the post not the poster answered but it's up to the individual of course.

I do note one thing Dex, when you get spiky and want to dig at an individual it's often early hours of the morning.

 

[SwanHills]

It is an essential part of this forum's membership qualification ceremony, you have to be 'spiked' by Dex, and not blink..........