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Off Topic Saints Not606 Music Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by Saints_Alive, Jun 13, 2017.

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Do you want a stickied music thread ?

Poll closed Jun 16, 2017.
  1. YES

    21 vote(s)
    72.4%
  2. NO

    4 vote(s)
    13.8%
  3. DON'T CARE

    4 vote(s)
    13.8%
  1. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Most people involved in the Beach Boys’ recordings acknowledge that Brian did the arranging and wrote the scores. Of course the other brothers, Mike Love, and Al Jardine came up with some of the ideas, but the bulk of the creativity was Brian’s. He had little in the way of formal musical training or education, and taught himself to write and arrange orchestral scores, which in my mind puts him in the Mozart class.
     
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  2. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    He has been compared to Beethoven and i was aware that he initially had no formal training. There are few people in pop music who can do this but not many with that level.of originality.
     
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  3. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    So, any retraction of the “aural bubblegum” slur?
     
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  4. Jos Say No

    Jos Say No Well-Known Member

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    Imagine having all those incredible ideas and no formal music education, yet you’re still able to get it all out and create something like Pet Sounds. The genius is in the vision and persistence in making things work together because you believe in it rather than knowingly theoretically that it should.

    McCartney once called God Only Knows the greatest song ever written. Whilst I am inclined to agree for personal and sentimental reasons, I can’t help but feel that if Heroes and Villains had received the Pet Sounds treatment then it would have surpassed it.

    You just have to put Surfin’ USA next to Wouldn’t it be Nice, Wild Honey, Surf’s Up and Getcha Back to see how the Beach Boys constantly changed and stayed relevant to popular music and Brian was almost certainly the spearhead of that.
     
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  5. NNSaint

    NNSaint Well-Known Member

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    I get that but I also know that music appreciation is 100% subjective and any attempt to make objective comparisons is largely a waste of time (and rightly so).

    Emotion is what most people feel about music and if 4 chords and a melody (and let’s not forget the words) can move people, in my book that’s genius too.

    I do have a deep knowledge of music theory but I have often thought that sometimes that actually gets in the way and makes my listening too analytical. Indeed my favourite artists over the years have been the ones that make me forget it and just listen.
     
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  6. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    I have tried to make this point quite a few times...
     
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  7. NNSaint

    NNSaint Well-Known Member

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    Happy to help you out :)
     
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  8. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    I can see both sides of the argument. It is possible to make complex music which is meaningless (IMO the likes of Alkan, Anthony Braxton , Webern, Medtner,etc etc) and simple music that speaks volumes such as much country blues which i love. I think it is rare to make music which is sophisticated and that has popular appeal. The prime examples of this would be Herbie Hancock and Pat Metheny.

    It is interesting to read critical analysis for music but, as you say, it is subjective. I have seen some interesting arguments presented in books / Tv including the Beethoven / Wilson comparison. A similar argument was msde by Howard Goodall about the Beatles writing song cycles. Even writers lije Gunther Schuller who had feet in both jazz and classical was prone to erratic conclusions of the merits of certain musicians. However, i think that i would put Wilson in the same box as the likes of Sun Ra, Moondog , Erik Satie,etc as an original and unorthodox musical mind. He stands out in pop music because it is unusual not to be orthodox and still manage to be commercial. Not sure if you could make a serious case for pop music having an equivalent of Beethoven and Mozart as composers (maybe Frank Zappa or Prince come closest but even the latter had help from Clare Fischer) but think such a comparison would be better suited to improvising abilities where a comparison with Jimi Hendrix would not be unfair.
     
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  9. tiggermaster

    tiggermaster Well-Known Member

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    Don''t forget the lyrics. ' I'm a leaf on a windy day, pretty soon I'll be blown away, how long will the wind blow? Until I die....'
     
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  10. StJabbo1

    StJabbo1 Well-Known Member

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  11. NNSaint

    NNSaint Well-Known Member

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    I agree we can label music as sophisticated or simple but I am careful not to describe any music with words such as meaningless. It may not have mass appeal but it will almost certainly have meaning to some.

    in terms of the mass appeal of “sophisticated” music, there are lots of examples of this. Stevie Wonder being probably one of the best I can think of off the top of my head. Give me a little time and I could come up with quite a long list but you get my point.

    On the whole I feel that labelling all mass-appeal music as simple is treading on thin ice. Not to mention untrue.
     
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  12. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    And who cares if it is simple? There are pieces of classical music that move me. There is very little in Jazz that I've heard that can make me feel emotional. But if you play me the JCB Song by Nizlopi, which is frankly in nobody's category of 'good' songs, it'll make me cry because it makes me think of my dad.

    Art is meant to move you. The only really 'meaningless' art is that which provides no emotional response.
     
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  13. NNSaint

    NNSaint Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I once heard a musician (can’t remember who now) say about the blues: “it’s the easiest music to play but the hardest to play well”
     
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  14. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    Spot on. And ‘well’ means to create an emotional response, to give it meaning. Not to pass your grade 8 theory.
     
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  15. NNSaint

    NNSaint Well-Known Member

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    Yep. They say that to play the blues well you have to live the blues and that is what he meant.
     
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  16. thereisonlyoneno7

    thereisonlyoneno7 Well-Known Member

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    Talking of music and theory etc. I am musically inept when it comes to instruments. I can play the recorder (well could 45 years ago) and more recently I can play OWTSGMI on the ruler (lol honest). On my bucket list is to learn the keyboard or piano. Not to Richard Clayderman levels, but just to be able to play a tune. For those on here that can play musical instruments, it it something you can learn (again not to an amazing level as I know that is a talent), or is it something you just can either do or not do?
     
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  17. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you can learn to a vaguely competent level.
     
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  18. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Of all the great pianists throughout world history to aspire to, and you choose Richard Clayderman….
     
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  19. Saints_Alive

    Saints_Alive Well-Known Member

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    Les Dawson for one...
     
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  20. Saints_Alive

    Saints_Alive Well-Known Member

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    Blimey, all these posts, Ian must be being controversial again...<laugh>
     
    #9320
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