Saints Academy Thread

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Schad said:
Take the Ipswich Town team that beat our kids in the 2005 Youth Cup Final. We had an uncommon number of players in that squad who went on to top-level competition. Ipswich didn't:

GK - Shane Supple. Played sparingly with Ipswich. Retired at 22. Making a comeback in the Irish league this season.
MF - Sammy Moore. Has had a fairly successful lower league career. Currently in League Two.
DF - Michael Synnott. Does not appear to have had a professional career.
DF - James Krause. Failed to make a first team appearance with Ipswich. Played non-league, appears to have retired.
DF - Michael Casement. Barely played with Ipswich. Has spent most of his career in the semi-professional Northern Ireland Football League.
DF - Aidan Collins. Barely played with Ipswich. Retired due to injury at 21, while playing non-league.
MF - Cathal Lordan. Seems to have played with Cork City. Can't find him now.
MF - Liam Trotter. Has settled in to a good career at the Championship/League One level.
FW - Darryl Knights. Cups of coffee with league teams have given way to a long career in non-league.
MF - Owen Garvan. Took this long, but we've finally found someone who saw quite a bit of the pitch for Ipswich. Even got two Premier League games with Palace, though he's now in League Two.
MF - Liam Craig. Has played his whole career in the SPL.
FW - Danny Haynes. Bounced around the Football League; now non-league.
FW- Blair Hammond. Does not appear to have had a professional career.
FW - Charlie Sheringham. Bounced between non-league and League Two.
MF - Ed Upson. Solid Football League career.
GK - Andy Reynolds. Does not appear to have had a professional career.
DF - Stuart Ainsley. Does not appear to have had a professional career.


The 17 players in their squad have combined for 2 Premier League appearances, as far as I can tell. Before the age of 30, I count 7 or 8 who retired (including the one making a comeback), and a further 4 who are plying their trade in non-league. That leaves 5 of 17 between the FL/SPL; Trotter, in the Championship or Craig in the SFL are playing at the highest level.

And that's not a random Academy...it's the Youth Cup winners.
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Good example Schad. Very few make it.
 
fatletiss said:
That's fine it's your opinion. I don't agree. I don't see it as a win. Nobody is saying every young player should get time. Only those who can cut it get the time. If you knew the % of young players who don't make it in the game, you'd realise your post has no real touch with reality.

Every club has say 18 youngsters in the 16-18 age group. How many of those don't make it because they're not good enough, not determined enough or just don't want it anymore? Very high %, so what you've written above pales into insignificance.

A better idea would be to have smaller squads and then more youngsters would have to play.
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I have seen you post about the national team and how things need to change within the coaching to bring a higher class of player through, look at virtually every successful international nation in recent times, then look at some of their players career histories, the vast majority have spent time at a B team. The PL isn't going to change it's rules as it will, possibly only for a short period, lower the standard of the league and as a knock on effect lower TV deals, popularity of the league etc.

As for your 2nd paragraph, that is true, but how many players don't make it because they have never been given the opportunity at a competitive level? As I mentioned in my example there are players who may well have the talent and the desire to make it, but football is an incredibly competitive and difficult industry to be successful in. If you are a 20 year old who has just come to the end of his first pro contract and have never played a game at conference/L2 level then it is going to be very hard for you to find another club. Sure there will be many who aren't good enough, but there is a reason they were given that pro contract in the first place, they are obviously talented but only have the u21 league to showcase their skills, which is completely different to playing in a really competitive league.
 
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Saintmagic said:
I have seen you post about the national team and how things need to change within the coaching to bring a higher class of player through, look at virtually every successful international nation in recent times, then look at some of their players career histories, the vast majority have spent time at a B team. The PL isn't going to change it's rules as it will, possibly only for a short period, lower the standard of the league and as a knock on effect lower TV deals, popularity of the league etc.

As for your 2nd paragraph, that is true, but how many players don't make it because they have never been given the opportunity at a competitive level? As I mentioned in my example there are players who may well have the talent and the desire to make it, but football is an incredibly competitive and difficult industry to be successful in. If you are a 20 year old who has just come to the end of his first pro contract and have never played a game at conference/L2 level then it is going to be very hard for you to find another club. Sure there will be many who aren't good enough, but there is a reason they were given that pro contract in the first place, they are obviously talented but only have the u21 league to showcase their skills, which is completely different to playing in a really competitive league.
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That's fair comments Saint Magic. Not every player can make it and some will fall by the wayside. Being given a pro contract doesn't mean that you are good enough to make it; it means you might be. If a player is "good" but doesn't make it, they can be released and then a lower league club can still sign them and they can rejuvenate their careers. One of the best examples of that is Leon Brittain at Swansea.

Is there any information on the "vast majority" of players from the the successful nations? I'm always open to see both sides and would read up on any info supporting that.

My B team worry is that more and more players get signed by the bigger clubs. I'd prefer a restriction in actual squad size for better young player development, or restriction in the number of over 21's you can have at a club.

Maybe the B team incorporation needs more consideration then.
 
fatletiss said:
That's fair comments Saint Magic. Not every player can make it and some will fall by the wayside. Being given a pro contract doesn't mean that you are good enough to make it; it means you might be. If a player is "good" but doesn't make it, they can be released and then a lower league club can still sign them and they can rejuvenate their careers. One of the best examples of that is Leon Brittain at Swansea.

Is there any information on the "vast majority" of players from the the successful nations? I'm always open to see both sides and would read up on any info supporting that.

My B team worry is that more and more players get signed by the bigger clubs. I'd prefer a restriction in actual squad size for better young player development, or restriction in the number of over 21's you can have at a club.

Maybe the B team incorporation needs more consideration then.
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And that is another plus for B teams imo, if a player has spent time at "Southampton B" playing in the conference, but isn't good enough for Saints' first team so is released then teams in the conference will have seen him at that level playing regularly and can make the judgement on whether or not he is good enough, rather than just him fading out of the game completely.

If you go say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_football_team#Current_squad

And click on some of the players and look at the career history then you will see that the majority will have spent time at a B team, same with Germany, I know Portugal have B teams but I haven't looked into the past history of their players so can't comment 100%, but I would expect a similar case there aswell.

The beauty of implementing B teams in England is that because it is all new we can look at other countries and take the best aspects of B teams, what works and what doesn't, and implement it here. Knowing the FA though they would somehow **** it up
 
I dislike the whole idea of B teams because it displaces other teams and is virtually saying that nothing has value unless it is in the PL. These leagues are proper competitions....yes, they are trying to scale the ladder, but they have value in their own right. Even if the B teams are not allowed to be promoted, it devalues the league team that gets promoted if they finish in 3rd or 4th.
 
fran-MLs little camera said:
I dislike the whole idea of B teams because it displaces other teams and is virtually saying that nothing has value unless it is in the PL. These leagues are proper competitions....yes, they are trying to scale the ladder, but they have value in their own right. Even if the B teams are not allowed to be promoted, it devalues the league team that gets promoted if they finish in 3rd or 4th.
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This is the common assumption that I hear when I say that I am in favour of B teams. If you look at the Spanish league, Real Madrid and Barcelona's B teams play in the equivalent of League 1, in a far weaker football league than ours. In theory these 2 should be up there with the best possible B teams around, but they are still playing at a pretty low level as it is just a means to develop kids. I also don't think that "Man Utd B" should be chucked into L2 at the expense of another club, I think they should be made to start much lower down and work their way up until they find their level. If we decided to start a Not606 FC and joined the football pyramid then wherever we start should be similar for any team wanting to have a B team.
 
Interesting Ipswich Town Youth history there Schad. Thought I'd do the same for the Saints side to see whether ours were a little more cherished:

GK: Andrew McNeil. Fairly full career largely in the Scottish lower leagues.
DF: Craig Richards. Released by Saints, Was to sign for Grimsby, but had a bad injury. Played in non-league.
DF: Sebastian Wallis-Taylor. Non-league career. Returned to France for last 7 seasons with Lisieux.
FW: David McGoldrick. Good, solid Championship career level player.
DF: Sean Rudd. Oxford youth, transferred to Saints. Retired due to bad knee injury.
DF: Martin Cranie. Rejected Saints contract extension to find regular football. Solid Championship and League One career.
MF: Lloyd James. Reasonably successful at Saints during Chp/Lge One seasons. Solid lower league career.
MF: Tim Sparv. Successful European football career with Europa League experience. Finnish international with 49 caps.
FW: Theo Walcott. Successful international footballer with Arsenal. Enough said.
FW: Leon Best. Solid Championship career with several clubs.
MF: Nathan Dyer. Successful Premier League who won the title last season on-loan with Leicester. Enough said.
Sub FW: Adam Lallana: Successful PL and international footballer. Enough said.
Sub MF: Feliciano Condesso. Sparse playing career with clubs in Spain and Portugal.
Sub DF: Kyle Critchell. Suffered bad cruciate injury. Since played largely in non-league.
Sub DF: Gareth Bale. Need more be said.?

Even Sean Rudd would have had a professional career if he hadn't had such a bad injury. Craig Richards' and Kyle Critchell's careers were also curtailed by injury. I call that a pretty damn successful bunch, on the whole.

Not to forget Dexter Blackstock from that age group, who was a Saints first team member by then, and also has had a successful Championship career. It appears that if you came to Saints, even in those years of almost no money, you had a good chance of making it. This of course excludes any who didn't play in that Youth Final, and appear to have fallen by the wayside, like Jamie White, for example. But even he had a good lower and non-league career. Golden generation.?
 
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SAINTDON13 said:
http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/arti...3s-report-southampton-1-0-fulham-3215488.aspx

Not seen it mentioned elsewhere, has anyone got the lowdown on Will Britt being able to play after he was supposed to have been released?
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Harry Lewis was still with the first team in Groningen, so I guess we are letting him hang around until the end of pre-season.

Anyway, I see another ref who was around at the same time as me has made it to a decent level. I could have been good if I wasn't so lazy.
 
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