Rival watch

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notsosmartspur said:
We know who we are
We know who we are
Supercup and World Club failures!
We know who we are

...add that to your sig DL, Drogs et al!

:D
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Winning the Champions League (being the first and only London club to do so) atones for that <ok>

Corinthians fully deserved it, pressed well and great ball retention. Pretty much a blueprint of how to play against this Chelsea side, Shaktar did it quite well home and away.
 
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&#12354;&#12394;&#12383;&#12399;&#31505;&#12356;&#12434;&#25265;&#12360;&#12390;&#12356;&#12427;&#12290;

For those whose Japanese isnt so good, that's...

Anata wa,
warai o kakaete iru Anata wa
warai o kakaete iru W&#257;rudokurabuchanpion,
Anata wa warai o kakaete iru.
 
notsosmartspur said:
...how does giving it away so limply feel?
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We just simply aren't good enough, but nor were City (The PL Champions). The fact of the matter is, no English club will get beyond the QF. Arsenal will be out next round, United round after. The PL is light years behind La Liga and Bundesliga due to a transition in general approach to the game. Everybody is trying to play football but nobody can defend partly because nobody has a holding midfielder in the Busquets, Alonso mould. Square pegs, round holes <ok>
 
I'd agree with DL on that. Defending seems to have become a bit of a lost art in the Premiership. Whether that is in pursuit of " entertainment" I don't know. However, it seems that you can mostly get away with it in the PL because almost nobody else can defend either. In Europe you won't get away with lax defending. You'll get punished and find it very hard to come back.

Ironically, Chelsea won the CL last year with some of the finest arses to the wall defending we've seen for a long, long time. Mixed in with an incredible amount of luck.
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
I'd agree with DL on that. Defending seems to have become a bit of a lost art in the Premiership. Whether that is in pursuit of " entertainment" I don't know. However, it seems that you can mostly get away with it in the PL because almost nobody else can defend either. In Europe you won't get away with lax defending. You'll get punished and find it very hard to come back.

Ironically, Chelsea won the CL last year with some of the finest arses to the wall defending we've seen for a long, long time. Mixed in with an incredible amount of luck.
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Chelsea being lucky is grossly exaggerated though. If you have a gameplan and stick to it, it isn't luck. Luck generally speaking is something you can't legislate for, the only point at which we were lucky was Messi hitting the bar in the 2nd leg and Sanchez hitting the bar, something which was out of our control. But even then there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if it's luck when it happens time and time again. Barca have never beaten Chelsea 11 v 11. Messi has set goalscoring records in 2012 but never has scored against Chelsea. Why? Because they know how to defend against him and I'd argue nobody else in world football does.

Getting back on point though I just think the work Barca, Shaktar, Borussia Dortmund, Bayern and even Juventus when they don't have the ball isn't truly acknowledged because they are so technically gifted. Real Madrid, Man Utd, Arsenal and PSG will have no chance against those sides unless improve defensively. Premier League sides have the inability to keep shape when they don't have the ball. WBA at the Hawthorns and Stoke are probably the only two sides I've seen that retain shape when they don't have the ball. The Manchester clubs and the 3 big London clubs are hopeless at it. All about getting the balance right <ok>

If Puyol, Busquets and Pique all stay fit I can't see beyond Barca for the CL, winner will definitely come from Germany or Spain, you can be certain of that <ok>
 
In some ways I agree with DL, as while I do view Chelsea as a lucky team, you also have to understand if a team is defensive and making it difficult for the opposition then this puts more pressure on the opposition to take their chances when they arrive so effectively chelseas dogged, dour and boring approach last season in the champions league worked, so of course they will view it as a plan that worked to a tee.

However, not sure if it was luck or fate that two world class talents such as messi & robben missed penalties that would have sent Chelsea out.
 
Moving on,if Arsenal win tonight which they should that puts them only two points behind us and everybody is writing them off for a top four and says that there has been a power shift. I really don't get it
 
Boss said:
In some ways I agree with DL, as while I do view Chelsea as a lucky team, you also have to understand if a team is defensive and making it difficult for the opposition then this puts more pressure on the opposition to take their chances when they arrive so effectively chelseas dogged, dour and boring approach last season in the champions league worked, so of course they will view it as a plan that worked to a tee.

However, not sure if it was luck or fate that two world class talents such as messi & robben missed penalties that would have sent Chelsea out.
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They needed more missed penalties in the shoot-out too. If any of these penalties were scored then Chelsea would most likely not have won the CL. This must be about a 100-1 shot - as good a definition of lucky that you are likely to see, unless as you suggest Boss, they were put off by having to score them against the might of Chelsea.
 
Whichever way you look at it, with objective eyes anyway, Chelsea were incredibly lucky - not that I'd expect a Chelsea fan to admit that!
Yes, it was some phenomenal do or die defending, but a large slice of fortune was involved against both Barca & Bayern.
But, getting back to DL's original point, it was defending that got them there. So, where I agree with him is, I think that we will see none of our PL teams in the last stages of the competition this year because none of them can defend adequately.
 
littleDinosaurLuke said:
DL, Utd have had sustained success in the CL over 15+ years including 2 wins and 2 other finals resulting in a number one rating in the seeding index. That counts for a lot more than your perception that a few B list Brazilians playing in Ukraine (that hotbed of European football) are "technically gifted".

Incidentally, RvP, Rooney, Scholes, Carrick, Valencia and others are amongst the most technically gifted players you will find anywhere. And what about Tevez, Aguero, Silva and Nasri?

This rubbishing of the PL because Chelsea couldn't qualify, City lack nous and Arsenal have replaced quality players with duds, is wide of the mark.
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You're joking right? He can't even use his left foot.
 
littleDinosaurLuke said:
DL, Utd have had sustained success in the CL over 15+ years including 2 wins and 2 other finals resulting in a number one rating in the seeding index. That counts for a lot more than your perception that a few B list Brazilians playing in Ukraine (that hotbed of European football) are "technically gifted".

Incidentally, RvP, Rooney, Scholes, Carrick, Valencia and others are amongst the most technically gifted players you will find anywhere. And what about Tevez, Aguero, Silva and Nasri?

This rubbishing of the PL because Chelsea couldn't qualify, City lack nous and Arsenal have replaced quality players with duds, is wide of the mark.
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Man for man, City are by far the best team in the PL. United haven't been good in the CL under Fergie given the squads and ability you've had at your disposal and even then you were outplayed comprehensively in both finals.

The most technically gifted players in the PL at the moment are Silva, Aguero, Tevez, Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Dembele, Cazorla, Ben Arfa, Scholes, Kagawa, Yaya Toure, RVP. All bar RVP have great dribbling ability, low centre of gravity, tough to tackle etc. Only one of those came from this country. All the best players we have in the PL are foreign, that's an undeniable fact

If you think United have any more chance of winning the CL than Arsenal do then your being ridiculously myopic IMO. I'd go as far as saying this United side is the weakest (in terms of CL aptitude) Fergie has ever had. Final is in Wembley and no English team will near the final, there comes a point where you have to question the strength of the league when every English team in the CL AND Europa League cannot cope with the European competition.
 
Boss said:
In some ways I agree with DL, as while I do view Chelsea as a lucky team, you also have to understand if a team is defensive and making it difficult for the opposition then this puts more pressure on the opposition to take their chances when they arrive so effectively chelseas dogged, dour and boring approach last season in the champions league worked, so of course they will view it as a plan that worked to a tee.

However, not sure if it was luck or fate that two world class talents such as messi & robben missed penalties that would have sent Chelsea out.
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Messi missed, Robben didn't. Cech actually saved the penalty, he had studied all of Bayern's penalties over the last 4 years and knew Robben almost inside out as they were both Chelsea. He guessed correctly based on knowledge he had gathered over years. For me when you prepare for something, it isn't luck. I agree Messi's was lucky but can't agree with people saying a keeper saving a penalty is lucky, they do their homework more often than not <ok>


PowerSpurs said:
They needed more missed penalties in the shoot-out too. If any of these penalties were scored then Chelsea would most likely not have won the CL. This must be about a 100-1 shot - as good a definition of lucky that you are likely to see, unless as you suggest Boss, they were put off by having to score them against the might of Chelsea.
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Yeah but we had to miss penalties as well. What odds would you have got on Mata - our player of the season - missing a penalty in a CL final? For too many years the English have believed penalty shoot outs are about "luck", it isn't. It's about preparation and holding your nerve. Germans are mentally tougher than most from early childhood (as are the Japanese), it's not luck that they always win penalty shoot outs, in the same way Bradford winning 4/5 shoot outs on the trot (including v Arsenal) isn't luck. When it went to pens I think everybody expected Bradford to win simply as they have bottle and Arsenal don't.

NowsufferinginSpain said:
Whichever way you look at it, with objective eyes anyway, Chelsea were incredibly lucky - not that I'd expect a Chelsea fan to admit that!
Yes, it was some phenomenal do or die defending, but a large slice of fortune was involved against both Barca & Bayern.
But, getting back to DL's original point, it was defending that got them there. So, where I agree with him is, I think that we will see none of our PL teams in the last stages of the competition this year because none of them can defend adequately.
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Of course we were lucky but not to the extent many rival fans are saying. And even if we were lucky, we were the width of a post and a dry pitch from winning the thing in Moscow, a competent referee away from being in the final in Rome (a final which we probably would have won), before then you have to go back to goal which was never given, a penalty shoot out away from being in a final in Athens (a game by which were the better side for over the 2 legs). Even if we were lucky in every CL match last season it wouldn't make up for the years of bad luck we've had.

The problem is football has changed and so have fans. 50 years ago when football was less tribal and partisan just about every football fan would have had a begrudging admiration for the way in which we won the CL (4 guaranteed starters out, 2 central defenders playing on tight hamstrings who'd only played with each other once before, at the home of our opponents, 1-0 down with 5 minutes left to play).

But back on point, we agree that PL teams are inept off the ball/defensively and until they improve they will never do well in Europe.:emoticon-0150-hands
 
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