Rival watch

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Winning the EL became all important to United because they performed so poorly in the PL. Jose Mourinho's on record as to his thoughts on the competition. He has re-written those views solely because of United's desperate need to get back into the CL. Imagine Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona continually failing to get into the competition? It's unthinkable and Mourinho's brief at the beginning would have been:

1. Win the PL;
2. Qualify for the CL;
3. Win a cup;
4. Close the door on your way out.

Having not even competed for 1. and completely failed to get anywhere close to top 4 for aim no. 2. from the PL, he did a Klopp and threw everything at the EL. He succeeded and well done for that. But for a club with United's resources, winning that cup is a minor aim and achievement. If United had still been competitive in the PL, the EL would have been sacked off in a heartbeat.

But for the CL qualification, they'd have played the kids and stiffs throughout like we did for a decade. Despite Mourinho's re-engineering of reality and ranting hilariously about how he prefers to qualify for the CL by winning the EL; that, Gentlemen, is the truth of it.

 

[D.G.C.]

Brian said it was meaningless to win the trophies which kind of insinuates its not a successful season.

I seriously don't understand when a supporter of a club makes a comment about another club that a supporter of said club has to bring something back on the club from whence the original comment came. I see it serves no useful purpose. I'd prefer to concentrate on the comment instead of the club.

 

[BobbyD]

I seriously don't understand when a supporter of a club makes a comment about another club that a supporter of said club has to bring something back on the club from whence the original comment came. I see it serves no useful purpose. I'd prefer to concentrate on the comment instead of the club.

I'm not a United fan, i'm just here to offer my opinion that United had a more successful season than Spurs. If people want to say those trophies are pretty meaningless, i would disagree as you are pretty much saying Spurs season was meaningless (apart from progress).

They've spent £300+ mill to do it. And they'll probably spend the same again this summer.

Depends on you point of view, I suppose. If you measure by just trophies they've done well. But their consistency over an entire season is poor considering the amount invested.

Mourinho virtually bet the farm on winning the Europa. Had that blown up, he'd be sitting nowhere, despite all the money spent.

Firstly the money spent is something to beat him with if he fails. He was terrible in the league but he made up for it with the Europa. Of course you will get far more plaudits for winning without spending so much, but not spending and not winning is way worse than spending and winning. We only need to look at how we laugh at Wenger and say 12 years without a trophy when he was literally running a negative transfer spend from years 2005- 2009. No one says, Wenger hasn't won it for 7 years since 5 of those years he was handicapped.

No one is harping on about Klopp finishing 4th and CL on -7m spend (except scouse fans) and no one would say they have had a better season than you because of it as everyone knows you have finished higher, played the better football and been more consistent.

As for Mourinho betting the farm with europey. Of course he did. Once he saw that there was an opportunity to win it and no chance of the league, he threw the last 4 or 5 united games. No one ever goes into a cup tournament and lays it all on the line for one (unless you are roman or real who sack managers for not winning it) because they are 1 off games where a bit of luck and a sending off can change everything. However once you're there and beaten loads of teams to get there, it's a big trophy to win especially now they attach it with CL.

If at the start of a season you were offered a 1 game away from winning europey or 1 game from securing top 4, without a shadow i would be going for the europey final now that it has a CL spot attached to it

 

[NSIS]

I'm not a United fan, i'm just here to offer my opinion that United had a more successful season than Spurs. If people want to say those trophies are pretty meaningless, i would disagree as you are pretty much saying Spurs season was meaningless (apart from progress).



Firstly the money spent is something to beat him with if he fails. He was terrible in the league but he made up for it with the Europa. Of course you will get far more plaudits for winning without spending so much, but not spending and not winning is way worse than spending and winning. We only need to look at how we laugh at Wenger and say 12 years without a trophy when he was literally running a negative transfer spend from years 2005- 2009. No one says, Wenger hasn't won it for 7 years since 5 of those years he was handicapped.

No one is harping on about Klopp finishing 4th and CL on -7m spend (except scouse fans) and no one would say they have had a better season than you because of it as everyone knows you have finished higher, played the better football and been more consistent.

As for Mourinho betting the farm with europey. Of course he did. Once he saw that there was an opportunity to win it and no chance of the league, he threw the last 4 or 5 united games. No one ever goes into a cup tournament and lays it all on the line for one (unless you are roman or real who sack managers for not winning it) because they are 1 off games where a bit of luck and a sending off can change everything. However once you're there and beaten loads of teams to get there, it's a big trophy to win especially now they attach it with CL.

If at the start of a season you were offered a 1 game away from winning europey or 1 game from securing top 4, without a shadow i would be going for the europey final now that it has a CL spot attached to it

What you say is fine if you have the money to spend. Utd obviously do, and they'll spend big time again this summer. But as a return on investment it has sucked up until now.

Despite the money spent, hundreds and hundreds of millions over the last few years, they've been nowhere. And they'd have been nowhere again if Mourinho's gamble hadn't paid off.

I guess what I'm saying is, a club of Utd's size and standing shouldn't have to rely on one off games to get them a CL place. And if Maureen's gamble had failed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Citizen Kane]

If people want to say those trophies are pretty meaningless, i would disagree as you are pretty much saying Spurs season was meaningless (apart from progress).

Very kind of you to undermine your own argument for us

As I said to Diego (he even agreed with me), unless United now press on next season to really challenge for the title and dominate as they did under fergie, these trophies will be revealed as flashes in the pan rather than signs of actual progress, and will thereby rapidly lose any 'meaning' they now have.

 

[BobbyD]

What you say is fine if you have the money to spend. Utd obviously do, and they'll spend big time again this summer. But as a return on investment it has sucked up until now.

Despite the money spent, hundreds and hundreds of millions over the last few years, they've been nowhere. And they'd have been nowhere again if Mourinho's gamble hadn't paid off.

I guess what I'm saying is, a club of Utd's size and standing shouldn't have to rely on one off games to get them a CL place. And if Maureen's gamble had failed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If maureen had failed, then not only would we laugh at him, we would laugh at how much he spent to fail.

As it is he won so there isn't too much to laugh about. Probably best to stay quiet about it as it just sounds a little bitter and also isn't really something to beat him with if your season hasn't been as successful.

You should just be proud that your team is actually playing really good football and if it wasn't for a record breaking chelsea season you might have brought home the bacon and really been over to gloat over the rest of us.

 

[BobbyD]

Very kind of you to undermine your own argument for us

As I said to Diego (he even agreed with me), unless United now press on next season to really challenge for the title and dominate as they did under fergie, these trophies will be revealed as flashes in the pan rather than signs of actual progress, and will thereby rapidly lose any 'meaning' they now have.

We will see next season. Maybe everyone will drop off and leicester will win the league again. You guys are heading in the right direction but if you ultimately end up with nothing and do not win anything in this golden period, then everything will have been for nought and you would have been worse than united even if they win nothing else (not saying that will happen, your teams pretty decent).

In the here and now:

would i prefer your manage and team - yes
woud i have prefered uniteds season - undoubtedly

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

Very kind of you to undermine your own argument for us

As I said to Diego (he even agreed with me), unless United now press on next season to really challenge for the title and dominate as they did under fergie, these trophies will be revealed as flashes in the pan rather than signs of actual progress, and will thereby rapidly lose any 'meaning' they now have.

Ultimately, teams are judged by title wins. Teams are remembered as being the best when they've shown their quality over 38 games.
Nobody judges cup winning teams as the best of their time unless they were winning them in addition to titles - which many of the great teams of the past have done.
But winning cups is far from meaningless. Spurs had a period of 50 years of winning many F.A, League and U.E.F.A Cups without ever challenging for the title. Nobody here would feel that Spurs cup wins were in any way diminished or that the satisfaction, joy and fond memories fans still experience as a result are devalued because Spurs were usually off the pace in the league.
This might be far from the best ever Utd team, but winning two trophies and sneaking into the CL is still very pleasing.
As I've said before, my fondest memories of supporting Utd are going to two F.A.Cup finals at Wembley as a kid in the '80s, having to stand up all the way on the train there and back, not being able to see much of the game when the play was at the wrong end of the pitch etc....
Utd hadn't won the title for 16-18 years in those days and were not challenging the domination of Liverpool (and Everton). But there was no sense of disappointment at only winning the F.A.Cup.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Ultimately, teams are judged by title wins. Teams are remembered as being the best when they've shown their quality over 38 games.
Nobody judges cup winning teams as the best of their time unless they were winning them in addition to titles - which many of the great teams of the past have done.
But winning cups is far from meaningless. Spurs had a period of 50 years of winning many F.A, League and U.E.F.A Cups without ever challenging for the title. Nobody here would feel that Spurs cup wins were in any way diminished or that the satisfaction, joy and fond memories fans still experience as a result are devalued because Spurs were usually off the pace in the league.
This might be far from the best ever Utd team, but winning two trophies and sneaking into the CL is still very pleasing.
As I've said before, my fondest memories of supporting Utd are going to two F.A.Cup finals at Wembley as a kid in the '80s, having to stand up all the way on the train there and back, not being able to see much of the game when the play was at the wrong end of the pitch etc....
Utd hadn't won the title for 16-18 years in those days and were not challenging the domination of Liverpool (and Everton). But there was no sense of disappointment at only winning the F.A.Cup.

I've been at Wembley to see my team win cups back in the day. It's great and most of us wish that it meant more than it does now. However, the reality is that the money and prestige are in the CL and PL. Last season Van Gaal won the FA Cup. He got the sack. It may have been success but in terms of United's aims it wasn't enough. No CL, NO JOB. Rafa Benitez won the EL for Chelsea but nobody really gives a ****. Roberto DeMatteo is a hero.

As Wenger is so good at providing FA Cup wins, why aren't Arsenal fans going to be begging him to stay if they win it again on Saturday? He's successful. He might even win the EL next season? The 'Wenger Out' banners won't go away until they win the league because success has changed guys. It doesn't really count if there's no money it. If Wenger won both domestic cups every season for the next decade and missed out on CL qualification, he'd be hounded by the fans and sacked by the board. Deep down, you know it's true, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.

 

[BobbyD]

I've been at Wembley to see my team win cups back in the day. It's great and most of us wish that it meant more than it does now. However, the reality is that the money and prestige are in the CL and PL. Last season Van Gaal won the FA Cup. He got the sack. It may have been success but in terms of United's aims it wasn't enough. No CL, NO JOB. Rafa Benitez won the EL for Chelsea but nobody really gives a ****. Roberto DeMatteo is a hero.

As Wenger is so good at providing FA Cup wins, why aren't Arsenal fans going to be begging him to stay if they win it again on Saturday? He's successful. He might even win the EL next season? The 'Wenger Out' banners won't go away until they win the league because success has changed guys. It doesn't really count if there's no money it. If Wenger won both domestic cups every season for the next decade and missed out on CL qualification, he'd be hounded by the fans and sacked by the board. Deep down, you know it's true, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.

That's the key though Brian. United have qualified for the CL.

i'd say half gave a **** that Rafa won the EL but we hated Rafa so we don't give him any credit.

I'm sure if Wenger wins the EL next season (he won't he's a tactical bottler) then that would buy him time. What the Arse fans want though is a run at the league which they've never ever got close to and its groundhog day every year. They don't want Wenger because he's tactically inept, he spends every summer talking about buying quality but bringing in some young 16 year old talent from some small club and he has money that he won't spend. It's groundhog day every year and they get embarassed in the CL.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

That's the key though Brian. United have qualified for the CL.

I'm sure that sustaining a point over more than a couple of posts is a strain but if you go back and read my original post you will see that I wrote....

"If it wasn't for the CL qualification, United wouldn't have given it a second thought."

Effectively, the EL is Wenger's 4th place trophy's little brother, especially to a club of United's size. It's a win, sure but the ridiculous hyperbole Mourinho's giving it tells me all I need to know about how little it really means to them. You're right in that we need to win something but if we won the EL, you'd be on here telling us how little it means against the CL and you'd be right.

 

[BobbyD]

I'm sure that sustaining a point over more than a couple of posts is a strain but if you go back and read my original post you will see that I wrote....

"If it wasn't for the CL qualification, United wouldn't have given it a second thought."

Effectively, the EL is Wenger's 4th place trophy's little brother, especially to a club of United's size. It's a win, sure but the ridiculous hyperbole Mourinho's giving it tells me all I need to know about how little it really means to them. You're right in that we need to win something but if we won the EL, you'd be on here telling us how little it means against the CL and you'd be right.

Not sure i would come out gloating about that but you are correct that the PL and CL are way above the EL in terms of trophy recognition.

However if you had finished 17th in the league, Won the EL and lets just say Chelsea won all the other domestic trophies, in terms of a successful season (memories etc are subject to the person although i'm sure you'd have a cracking 1 off memory but a miserable PL season one), i would say you would have been more successful than whoever finished 2nd and trophyless.

if the EL didn't have the CL spot, it would have been very debateable about it being as a good as a top 4 spot (you hear fans argue for and against, top 4 for progress and moneys, EL for winning a trophy). Now that the EL has a CL spot this ones not even up for debate

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

i would say you would have been more successful than whoever finished 2nd and trophyless.

That's childishly simplistic. Anyone can win a cup. It's a one-off. Portsmouth won the FA Cup in the last decade as did Wigan and Birmingham City. Should Spurs treat their models as success?

"Hey, we're in the lower leagues but look at our success!"

Ridiculous. It is all about context, something your view is completely lacking.

Spurs are building a new future at very great expense and we need success that pays hard cash. Consecutive CL qualification for us is enormous financially and in terms of player retention. A League Cup win and having to sell Dele Alli to replace the income isn't success for us. As it wasn't when we won it in 2008 and lost Berbatov and Keane. Arsenal win on Saturday and Ozil, Sanchez, The Ox, Koscielny and the rest up and leave for clubs in the CL. Are they enjoying success? By your model, yes they are. We all know they're not and no amount of bluster can alter that.

 

[BobbyD]

That's childishly simplistic. Anyone can win a cup. It's a one-off. Portsmouth won the FA Cup in the last decade as did Wigan and Birmingham City. Should Spurs treat their models as success?

"Hey, we're in the lower leagues but look at our success!"

Ridiculous. It is all about context, something your view is completely lacking.

Spurs are building a new future at very great expense and we need success that pays hard cash. Consecutive CL qualification for us is enormous financially and in terms of player retention. A League Cup win and having to sell Dele Alli to replace the income isn't success for us. As it wasn't when we won it in 2008 and lost Berbatov and Keane. Arsenal win on Saturday and Ozil, Sanchez, The Ox, Koscielny and the rest up and leave for clubs in the CL. Are they enjoying success? By your model, yes they are. We all know they're not and no amount of bluster can alter that.

Thats a subjective matter in terms of a league cup or FA cup win. I agree that CL qualificaton is far better for a long term plan to sustain success (essentially revenue and squad building).

My example was specifically the Europa League which is a trophy and gives you CL. I would probably agree with you in the past if it was top 4 or the EL where CL wasn't given and even then that is debateable.

What there is no debate now is that winning the EL is better than a top 4 finish.

Keane and Berbatov moved for 2 things, a better chance of winning and more money. This is what 90% of players would do especially to the massive clubs.

It's a credit to your club and manager that you have fostered a special bond in the team that there haven't been any rumours of players wanting to move to a bigger club and eveyone has shown their intent by signing new contracts.

 

[The RDBD]

IMHO things are getting somewhat bitter here.

As I said on the PL board, Man Utd may have taken the more
tortuous (and risky) route to the CL, but they both got there and
won a trophy to boot.

Whether the football this season was vaguely near to the standards
expected for the on-paper squad they have, is up for debate.

Similarly whether the gross spend of 300m odd last summer is good
ROI, time will tell soon enough.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Thats a subjective matter in terms of a league cup or FA cup win. I agree that CL qualificaton is far better for a long term plan to sustain success (essentially revenue and squad building).

My example was specifically the Europa League which is a trophy and gives you CL. I would probably agree with you in the past if it was top 4 or the EL where CL wasn't given and even then that is debateable.

What there is no debate now is that winning the EL is better than a top 4 finish.

Yes, but again, anyone can win a cup. It's not quite 50/50 but it is highly risky. Citeh lost to Wigan FFS.

Liverpool and United took that route because they had to. Don't think for one second that they chose that route above a nice safe third or fourth place.

Liverpool weren't lucky enough to draw Hollands U20's in the final. Ask them whether it's better to take that route. It's great if it works out but it is the option of last resort not anyone sane's first choice.

Finally, from me, it's been announced that United are not going to have an open top bus parade or anything of that nature to celebrate this win and that decision has nothing to do with the very sad events of the last few days. No such celebrations were ever envisaged. 'Nuff said.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Yikes! I'd forgotten that if Chelsea beat Arsenal in the Cup Final, we get to play the Charity Shield.

Still, it'll be our first trophy for a while!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh, dear.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Jesus Navas, Gael Clichy and Willy Caballero to leave City this summer.

Place your bets: which one of them heads to China first?

 

[The RDBD]

Jesus Navas, Gael Clichy and Willy Caballero to leave City this summer.

Place your bets: which one of them heads to China first?

Clichy, if he gets the chance (gotta be close to / in "pension mode" now) .

 

[The RDBD]

.