OK, another day, another dollar on Oddy's Thread of the Month. As this forum has worn on, it would appears from a re-read of what's gone before us, that the general consensus is that the Procush whip causes no pain on the horse. However these feelings on the effect of the "persuader" on an animal, are not totally agreed with. I fall into this latter camp. I in no way wish to denigrate the opinions of the people on this forum. I've found them to be caring people, with well thought out reasons for their beliefs on the matter. I guess that's were we seem to be struggling a bit here, each side has a belief that can't be backed up in a scientific fashion. As best as I can see, there has been little done in the way of studying pain thresholds in horses. So, to some extent, we're all a bit in the dark here. But no matter how I try, I can't accept the feeling that a horse's epidermis is so insensitive, that it can't register feeling. We are talking about an area of skin that's about 2.5mm in depth. Less than a tenth of an inch. And it's ever evolving with genes moving up through structured layers, to replace those being shed after use. As far as I could see, there has been no proof offered in any test, that states the horse's epidermis is less sensitive that that of the human. We have an epidermis that measures about 1.55mm, as against the 2.5mm of the hindquarters of horse. But nowhere has this difference been seen as proof that the equine suffers less pain than the human. The horse must be given the benefit of the doubt. If it hurts me, then it probably hurts the horse. And this in no way takes into account, the possible psychological issues involved. If a horse can be driven to distraction by flies, then it stands to reason that their skin must be relatively sensitive. They must feel the whip. This of course is a given, if they didn't feel it, it wouldn't be used, but it's not a reward for the horse. This is not something the horse would look forward to, it's not a pleasurable exercise. Having said that though, I'm not against a rider carrying a stick, a horse has a mind of it's own, and at times can put a rider's life at risk. My gripe here, is with the pulling of the whip in an effort drive a horse on in search of prize money. In light of the "fact" (and I use the term loosely) that a horse's skin is sensitive to touch, it has to be morally unacceptable to whip the animal if there is no danger to either horse or rider. Well that's it on the subject for me. Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys.