He isn't going to be in the dugout plymborn as that has been made clear from the start. It does seem a bit backs to the wall doesn't it. Chadwick now coming off so it may be more of the same for the rest of the game. Not easy listening.
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Not impressed with the tactics there then, you have Hemmings on one side and the possibility of Lennox on the other, both with the pace to frighten people, especially when your pinned into your own box away from home. What did we do, bring on Soukouna and play for a draw...
Reality dawns............
Reality dawns............
We give Lennox a chance after 89 mins............what the hell is that all about.............thats the sought of subbing you do when your 1-0 up and running the clock down.............maybe Fletcher was thinking of our goal difference........didn't want them to score again.............good grief........dropping further behind...........getting serious.
That if I may say so is panicking in the first degree and trying to be wise after an event. Firstly when Sekouna came on we were not losing. The Sub would probably not have taken place to bring on shorty if we had still been drawing. We had been pinned back for most of the game so defending was the key to this not all out attack which we were hardly likely to be doing given the way the game panned out. Just because we lost in the end is now another reason to have a pop at Fletcher for some sort of tactical balls up. We are at the lower end of the table and are as sure as hell not going to win all the games are we. There is a fine line sometimes between getting a point and getting nothing and the team had held out for nearly all of the game. Port Vale deserved the win from what I heard but it was a good go at a point by Argyle. Or is that too positive a slant on things?
I did actually watch the Liv v Man U game earlier today despite my ribbing of you and notdistant. Man U had most of the game in my eyes and lost. Poor tactics from Ferguson? Brighton v Newcastle where Necastle had the majority of the game and chances but lost. 3 Subs by Pardew after they went behind. Why not before? Because on the balance of play they were the ones who looked like scoring or at worst it being a draw and back to St James Park. Poor tactics by Pardew? "If" they had done this or that or something else or sooner or later then they of course would have won says the armchair pundits. Oh but if life was that simple and them being so experienced as well. Why oh why does there have to be Manager bashing when the result goes the wrong way in the end. I don't see the same Manager praising, certainly in Fletcher's direction, when the result goes the right way. He managed 4 points out of 6 from two sides in the top end of the league in the last two. Lennox brought on and producing the ball that led to saving a point against Crawley. Inept or master stroke at the right time? You simply cannot beat the Manager up for every game lost and then fail to give him credit when it goes the other way which is what some do no matter what. Don't like Fletcher by all means but don't keep moving the goal posts just to suit your argument.
I did actually watch the Liv v Man U game earlier today despite my ribbing of you and notdistant. Man U had most of the game in my eyes and lost. Poor tactics from Ferguson? Brighton v Newcastle where Necastle had the majority of the game and chances but lost. 3 Subs by Pardew after they went behind. Why not before? Because on the balance of play they were the ones who looked like scoring or at worst it being a draw and back to St James Park. Poor tactics by Pardew? "If" they had done this or that or something else or sooner or later then they of course would have won says the armchair pundits. Oh but if life was that simple and them being so experienced as well. Why oh why does there have to be Manager bashing when the result goes the wrong way in the end. I don't see the same Manager praising, certainly in Fletcher's direction, when the result goes the right way. He managed 4 points out of 6 from two sides in the top end of the league in the last two. Lennox brought on and producing the ball that led to saving a point against Crawley. Inept or master stroke at the right time? You simply cannot beat the Manager up for every game lost and then fail to give him credit when it goes the other way which is what some do no matter what. Don't like Fletcher by all means but don't keep moving the goal posts just to suit your argument.
With all due respect Sensible I don't think Fletcher has idea how to change things around when its so obviously not working out on the pitch .... he waited until the 89th minute to make a substitution and then to make matters worse who did he take off ...... the player who according to Sparksy was head and shoulders above the rest as man of the match ..... Not manager bashing just being realistic that Fletcher is no manager !
Don't forget the rest of Sparksie's quote on the substitution Gat. He said "Young has run himself into the ground all game". Meaning if I've got it right the kid was out on his feet. Why leave him on then? Was Fletcher tactically right in the last 2 games? You know the ones where we didn't lose. My whole point is that I agree Fletcher is inexperienced with a but in there somewhere. But, we were not really expected to win today but hoped we might and would have settled for a draw. We lost at the eleventh hour so for most of the match the tactics weren't not working even if we were defending for most of it. Once we went behind he only really had Lennox as the option and there was little time for any impact there as we cannot expect him to produce mirracles in a few minutes every game. It's not like he changed anything and we got hammered score wise is it. We lost to a better team, only just but lost nonetheless, and have to accept that is going to happen whoever is in charge. Some of you appear to kick Fletcher no matter what and instead of taking a positive out of a success look for a negative in victory instead. Give the guy a break we ain't going to change the Manager now are we so if anyone need s the kicking it has to be the owner who employed him. You know the one, St James and his sidekick at the time MR RIDSDALE (plymborn).
I appologise Gat but had to make my point. When Fletcher was appointed by St James, who was his advisor? Won't actually mention the name again but you know who I mean. I mean did Fletcher just pop up to the office and say "Excuse me Gov Mr B sir, I fancy giving the kicking of footballs a rest and being a Manager instead". "Ok" say Mr B, "have a go because I'm suddenly a football expert myself". Of course he didn't. A certain nameless one is given praise for the fantastic players we have acquired it being nothing to do with Fletcher but is blameless for the appointment of the Manager himself? Yea right of course he is. Fletcher isn't going to get everything right we all know that. He is going to make mistakes we all know that. But, when things do go right then he deserves some credit if you are going to blame him when things don't. It is only fair and anyway, who else's door would you lay credit at if not his on a good day unless there is an intention not to give Argyle any credit ever for anything of course?
Firstly Sensible, I wasn't ribbing you for watching football on TV. We all do it - I have Sky Sports - but although we're all Argyle fans, you seem to attend Home Park regularly and on that basis, you're above criticism.
Equally, I'm not saying Fletcher should go. I wouldn't have appointed him permanently in the first place, but that's a different issue. As we stand, there has been some improvement - more is essential - and with 18 games to go and the January window almost behind us, I doubt very much the disruption and cost of another change now would get us anywhere. That isn't a ringing endorsement but it's the best I can do and I think the best that's deserved so far.
I think the point about yesterday is that if we had a straw poll when the 2nd half started as badly as the 1st, who seriously thought we'd keep a clean sheet until full time? I didn't for 1 minute.
The radio commentary repeatedly noted the lack of cutting edge up front. Whilst it was unlikely that we were going to start to control the game from midfield and turn it around that way, it's not half a disincentive to your opponents to push forward and pin you into your own box if you have two speed merchants poised on the half way line ready to chase down anything clipped over the top. And who knows, Hemmings & Lennox might just have nicked us one or at least earned a plethora of free kicks in Port Vale's half. It's not the controlled football we all want to see but probably the best we could muster over 45 minutes.
By comparison, why bring on Soukouna? If he was brought on as a stand-in striker, Chadwick, a specialist in that role, hadn't won much in the air so it's hardly likely Soukouna would. If he was brought on to bolster midfield, did we seriously think that would get us a clean sheet? I don't see it.
It is as you say only one defeat, away, against a Top 10 side. However, with Bradford, Hereford, Macclesfield and Northampton all losing, there won't be many more chances like that to make progress. It's a hard life but there it is.
Equally, I'm not saying Fletcher should go. I wouldn't have appointed him permanently in the first place, but that's a different issue. As we stand, there has been some improvement - more is essential - and with 18 games to go and the January window almost behind us, I doubt very much the disruption and cost of another change now would get us anywhere. That isn't a ringing endorsement but it's the best I can do and I think the best that's deserved so far.
I think the point about yesterday is that if we had a straw poll when the 2nd half started as badly as the 1st, who seriously thought we'd keep a clean sheet until full time? I didn't for 1 minute.
The radio commentary repeatedly noted the lack of cutting edge up front. Whilst it was unlikely that we were going to start to control the game from midfield and turn it around that way, it's not half a disincentive to your opponents to push forward and pin you into your own box if you have two speed merchants poised on the half way line ready to chase down anything clipped over the top. And who knows, Hemmings & Lennox might just have nicked us one or at least earned a plethora of free kicks in Port Vale's half. It's not the controlled football we all want to see but probably the best we could muster over 45 minutes.
By comparison, why bring on Soukouna? If he was brought on as a stand-in striker, Chadwick, a specialist in that role, hadn't won much in the air so it's hardly likely Soukouna would. If he was brought on to bolster midfield, did we seriously think that would get us a clean sheet? I don't see it.
It is as you say only one defeat, away, against a Top 10 side. However, with Bradford, Hereford, Macclesfield and Northampton all losing, there won't be many more chances like that to make progress. It's a hard life but there it is.
With all due respect Sensible what about the other 88 minutes why wasn't anything changed before, when just by listening to Sparksy's commentary you could tell it wasn't working out on the pitch, wasn't Lennox instrumental in setting up the goal against Crawley ? Why leave it until the 89th minute to change things. I'm really sorry but I feel Fletcher shouldn't be allowed to cut his teeth at the expense of our club ! I work in finances but I liken it to me being given the role of running an Accountants, for one I'd be counting on everyone else knowing what they are doing and if things went wrong I wouldn't have a clue how to change it. I dont think I'd instill much confidence in the employees nor clients either !
We took note of Lennox and his first three minutes of League football..........involved with the build up to our equalizer against Crawley.
So we encourage him by sending him on even later against Port Vale..........does that sound logical or just damn cruel on a young player keen to show what he can do.
Ok Lennox has no experience of League football other than those two moments...........so as a Bristol City youngster their Championship level was at present possibly beyond him......and he has moved on.
I just cannot understand Fletchers thinking,bringing him on with officially only 60 seconds plus injury time to go.
Fletcher needs experience to help him at the coal face.........and that is in the dugout...........unless Deehan is into mental telepathy from the stand......where I assume he was sitting with his pen and paper making notes.
It makes me wonder if Fletcher can be compared with a Rabbit caught in the headlights of an oncoming car, not knowing what to do when match changing decisions are needed.
From what has been said on various threads,on here and elsewhere.........we had literally no attacking options available from the begining of the match........would a fit Feeney been able to support Chadwick more than Lacointe......probably yes........midfield did not seem able to help........maybe Waltons shoulder stopped him helping.
Tactics just didn't seem to deliver........and changing them needed an experienced head............end of contest..........remember Port Vale are not particularly a strong home side,better slightly away..........and two weeks back Burton where higher in the league than Port Vale, ............these are the games we desperately need to get something out of if we are going to stay in this league.
We cannot expect fellow strugglers not to have improved form and go on a run of good results at sometime.
So we encourage him by sending him on even later against Port Vale..........does that sound logical or just damn cruel on a young player keen to show what he can do.
Ok Lennox has no experience of League football other than those two moments...........so as a Bristol City youngster their Championship level was at present possibly beyond him......and he has moved on.
I just cannot understand Fletchers thinking,bringing him on with officially only 60 seconds plus injury time to go.
Fletcher needs experience to help him at the coal face.........and that is in the dugout...........unless Deehan is into mental telepathy from the stand......where I assume he was sitting with his pen and paper making notes.
It makes me wonder if Fletcher can be compared with a Rabbit caught in the headlights of an oncoming car, not knowing what to do when match changing decisions are needed.
From what has been said on various threads,on here and elsewhere.........we had literally no attacking options available from the begining of the match........would a fit Feeney been able to support Chadwick more than Lacointe......probably yes........midfield did not seem able to help........maybe Waltons shoulder stopped him helping.
Tactics just didn't seem to deliver........and changing them needed an experienced head............end of contest..........remember Port Vale are not particularly a strong home side,better slightly away..........and two weeks back Burton where higher in the league than Port Vale, ............these are the games we desperately need to get something out of if we are going to stay in this league.
We cannot expect fellow strugglers not to have improved form and go on a run of good results at sometime.
To repeat myself, I can't see where Deehan sits is especially relevant.
A few managers make a habit of sitting in the stand themselves for the first half where they can see the bigger picture of how the 2 teams are laid out, where the spaces are, where the runs are being made etc etc. Sam Allardyce is one of these and although he's in the stand, he's continually on the phone or the radio to his assistant in the dugout. He then goes down to the dressing room at half time and makes strategic changes and spends the second half, when it's too late for wholesale changes, in the dug-out.
Why can't Deehan make that sort of strategic contribution from the stand? There are such things as mobile phones and walkie-talkies and surely the Home Park directors' box could be hard-wired to the dug-out if necessary.
However, that's not the point. I presume Deehan was there yesterday and whatever else happened, we showed precious little improvement after half time even though the first half had been pretty dire. That harks back unpleasantly to the unhappy days of Sturrock II when if we'd played well in the first 45, the opposition seemed to reshape at half time and take us to the cleaners in the second, whereas if we'd been bad in the first half, it stayed the same or got worse!
Of course, unless you're Martin O'Neill, a manager's only as good as the options available to him. With Sutherland gone, Chadwick not fully fit and Feeney ill, yesterday really showed that Plymborn's right, we need another "leader of the line" even if he's not a 20+ goal a season star to act as an attacking focal point.
A few managers make a habit of sitting in the stand themselves for the first half where they can see the bigger picture of how the 2 teams are laid out, where the spaces are, where the runs are being made etc etc. Sam Allardyce is one of these and although he's in the stand, he's continually on the phone or the radio to his assistant in the dugout. He then goes down to the dressing room at half time and makes strategic changes and spends the second half, when it's too late for wholesale changes, in the dug-out.
Why can't Deehan make that sort of strategic contribution from the stand? There are such things as mobile phones and walkie-talkies and surely the Home Park directors' box could be hard-wired to the dug-out if necessary.
However, that's not the point. I presume Deehan was there yesterday and whatever else happened, we showed precious little improvement after half time even though the first half had been pretty dire. That harks back unpleasantly to the unhappy days of Sturrock II when if we'd played well in the first 45, the opposition seemed to reshape at half time and take us to the cleaners in the second, whereas if we'd been bad in the first half, it stayed the same or got worse!
Of course, unless you're Martin O'Neill, a manager's only as good as the options available to him. With Sutherland gone, Chadwick not fully fit and Feeney ill, yesterday really showed that Plymborn's right, we need another "leader of the line" even if he's not a 20+ goal a season star to act as an attacking focal point.
Another leader of the line as you call it notDistant.........is a requirement.............even not scoring the goals that person is keeping the defence honest.
Without that happening they become part of the offensive force..........meaning no respite for our defence,so the pressure builds.
Without that happening they become part of the offensive force..........meaning no respite for our defence,so the pressure builds.
Keeping our wage bill within the 55% cap is difficult for us when we have three players still on Championship money.
Fletcher,Larrieu and Walton between them must be earning a princely sum..........and remember we are paying a lot of Championship arrears back to a lot of past players.
We just need to get lucky and find a goalscorer who his not getting regular playing time................Mr Deehan we've got a little job for you to do........when your not sitting in the stand with your pen and paper.
Fletcher,Larrieu and Walton between them must be earning a princely sum..........and remember we are paying a lot of Championship arrears back to a lot of past players.
We just need to get lucky and find a goalscorer who his not getting regular playing time................Mr Deehan we've got a little job for you to do........when your not sitting in the stand with your pen and paper.
I agree Plym something has to be done...sooner rather than later...think yesterdays performance was 1 shot on goal and one off target, not sure if we had a corner?....we need goals so find it amazing why players don't shoot from 25yrds out or more when get half a chance....one's bound to go in!...January is almost out, now it's crunch time!
You forgot the mega money that Johnson is on as well and not even playing for us plymborn so the wage bill has less leaway in it still. I don't disagree we could do with another couple of players but if you cannot fit them into the wage bill as it is then we simply are not going to get them are we so keeping on about the fairly obvious is pointless. I think Fletcher was trying to play for a point yesterday after 15 minutes of seeing us penned in. Be fair it almost worked even if it is a dangerous ploy and especially with our lot and their record of conceeding. It is also fairly obvious to state we need to get something out of games but is it realistic to think we will go away to top 10 sides every other week and get something. Of course we won't and it is going to be a case of nick something here or there and try to get results at more winable grounds. It sort of astounds me that we should think Argyle are going to win games like this yet the other teams in the same boat as us won't. We hope they won't and we hope that we will is as best as it can go but to expect it is probably a little optimistic even for green spectacled people like me. The thing about Armchair managers, and that isn't a comment about attendance or not, is they all have an opinion on what they would or would not have done after a game has finished. I have no idea about managing a football team even if I sometimes venture an opinion on things. Had this one or that one been brought on it "might" have achieved this or that. Rather than might of course we are all convinced it "would" have done and we would be a genius tactician. There is two facts that we have to live with. Fletcher is the Manager till at least the end of this season and we have no money to throw at anything. We will have bad results between now and the end of the season and possibly pick up a point or two where least expected and lose points we expect to win. We aren't quite doomed yet and all we can do is hope and support as best we can.
I notice the comment about the one who cannot be mentioned fear of upsetting Gat has been mainly ignored. The genius in the transfer market who had nothing to do with the appointment of Fletcher it being a bad decision in a lot of people's minds.
I notice the comment about the one who cannot be mentioned fear of upsetting Gat has been mainly ignored. The genius in the transfer market who had nothing to do with the appointment of Fletcher it being a bad decision in a lot of people's minds.
Sensible - you are of course quite correct in saying that it's quite unreasonable to expect that, given where we're coming from, we should go away to Top 10 clubs and get a point or 3.
The problem is that we're 4 points behind Hereford in 21st and 5 points behind Bradford who have a game in hand. Unless we start producing head-turning results, we're in a 3-way dogfight to avoid 2 relegation places. At this late stage of the season, we HAVE to start producing unreasonably good results or we'll go down.
The problem is that we're 4 points behind Hereford in 21st and 5 points behind Bradford who have a game in hand. Unless we start producing head-turning results, we're in a 3-way dogfight to avoid 2 relegation places. At this late stage of the season, we HAVE to start producing unreasonably good results or we'll go down.
We all know what we need to do notdistant. However knowing and needing is a long way from doing as I've already said. I hope we go on an unbeaten 15 match run at the very least winning most of them but is that realistic to expect rather than hope. I have seen very few what I would call good teams at Home Park so far this season to be fair and there are many that are no better than us or no worse either to be fair. We can beat these teams with a bit of belief and maybe a bit of luck thrown in. We are stuck with Fletcher whether we like it or not and sitting at home in an armchair or even in a seat at the ground moaning isn't going to change it. I'd like 6 new players and a new manager with a proven record of being lucky and successful. I'd like an owner from Dubai with a dozen oilfields to buy us and promise us the world. Liking it to happen and getting it is again two different things. I see no point in Fletcher bashing or even Brent bashing or both now. Everyone wanted Brent so we got what we wished for even if there wasn't much else on offer. Live with it and if it means we get relegated again then we will just have to live with that as well.