I always have to chuckle when someone talks about religion causing problems, or some other such rubbish. Perversions of religion might well inspire someone to do something malevolent but the central tenets common to religion preach peace, understanding and generally being a good sort. Aggressive secularists might well like to portray themselves as inherently better/more intelligent/nicer, whatever, but dealing in such certainties as they often do demonstrates the kind of stupidity they lambast religious people for showing. Besides, debates about religion always feature the same nonsense, e.g. 'religion causes wars' (yep, Hitler followed the Bible down to a tee, didn't he?); e.g. 'religion teaches intolerance' (yep, just because some radicals treat women as inferior or decry contraception that must surely mean that all religious folk are equally backward...) That's why I see debates about the subject as futile. Fine, genuine discussions between sensible people can be very interesting. The problem is that they're all too often hijacked by someone intolerant and full of prejudice, one way or the other, and then they descend into chaos. That's my personal experience, anyway. Perhaps it would be better if we all accepted that others' opinions and beliefs are as worthy as our own and that, given that none of us has the answer to the most frequently asked question known to man, we should pause before dismissing what others say. I guess there's only one topic of conversation where I can stomach the other person swearing blindly that he has all the answers while I will shout till I'm blue in the face that he's wrong and I'm right. And that's football...
I like that way of thinking. Follow your Intuition and do what you feel is right to do. Regardless of believing in God/Allah/Jesus etc most of us know what is right to do and what is wrong. What bothers me is idiot people twist things in religion and then go out and kill murder etc and even dumber people think that is what the religion is about.
Okay, so this is where I stand...I have been a Christian for five years since I was 17. People ask me to prove that God exists and they will believe as if I, one human being, can show them an Eternal, all powerful, all seeing, all knowing being. My experience is that you cannot prove God, but He can prove Himself to you. Until I was 17 I sidestepped the issue and came up with soundbites that are popular but lacking any intelligent basis whatsoever such as 'religion causes wars' (many things cause wars, not just certain beliefs and most religions preach kindess etc.) and 'I can't see God' (I can't see the wind either but I know it's there). But God showed Himself to me on several occassions on my way home from school, I began hearing Him speak and challenge me on my beliefs, I fought it with things like 'If you really exists, then what about this?'. I had a Bible in my room given to me when I was younger, I began reading it and shockingly finding the right page with the answer to my question every time (impressive for a 1000+ page book). Eventually, God reminded me that I have messed up a lot and am not worthy of Him but that He is willing to forgive me (because Jesus took the rap for our sins) if I was willing to ask and follow Him. I made the choice and it has CHANGED my life. I was a pretty depressed person during my teen years but people now comment that I am always smiling and one of the most joyful people they have met, and I feel like it too! Yeah, I have still had hard times and tough situations..but I know that God can help me through them and He hasn't let me down yet. I can debate you, I will answer any questions (I believe that if what I believe is true it should stand up to any test) but we can write until our fingers hurt and I won't be able to prove God to you here. I will be able to give you a convincing argument but ultimately it is your choice to open up to God and let Him prove Himself to you. Jeremiah 29:13 - You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Thanks for reading
BUT.... however much you decry the 'extremist' and the 'intolerant' in any religion, this is what causes the suffering, the bloodshed, etc. And who are you to say that your 'version' of Christianity, diluted and softened over the centuries, is the correct one? Who is to say that the amputating, stoning islamists are not more faithfully following the words of the Prophet? What gives you dispensation to ignore the wackier instructions of Leviticus? You say that the central tenets of most religions incclude peace and tolerance - but again that is your interpretation, or rather those of the particular strain of Christianity that you adhere to. Maybe the crusading, Cathar exterminating Christians of the 12th Century were more faithfully carrying out God's will - after all they were closer in historical terms to 'Biblical times' than we are, and Jesus hasn't made an appearance in the interim to educate us better as far as I know. Maybe revisionists views of homosexuality and birth control are just wrong? Religion does cause wars. Religion does cause intolerance. Just because some religious leaders are wishy-washy like the Anglicans does not lessen the suffering and distress, the cruelty and inhumanity done in the name of God and religion.
Its probably just a way of looking at things Harrow but I can't agree with you that it is religion causing those wars etc - it is intolerance of other people that causes that - and that in my opinion is down to tribalism or what ever you want to call it - it is the same with football or inter-village wars in Africa and so on - religion may be the hat these things are hung on but the animosity is there because "those people" are not "your people". If religion disappeared overnight the same fights and wars would exist but with a new name behind them. Do you accept mjw6150's personal experience that has caused him to accept his God and Jesus or are you still of the opinion that only a half wit does that. For me I can accept that if there is a God he would be able to manifest himself to someone and not necessarily others - I don't know why he would but I can accept that and so totally respect mjw's beliefs - and applaud him for the way he has stood up and explained what he believes and why
I say if MJW has found god and he is happy , then fair play to him ! The important part there is not the religious bit ,but the fact that religion has made someone happy!!! I may disagree with his views ,but I applaud him for sharing it with us!
I am Christian in that Christ revealed himself to me. I can't prove it, its not science. Those who know me knbow i'm not exactly dumb or unquestioning but when it comes to religion I believe based on my own personal experience. the human is a spiritual being and everything is not explained by our modern scientific thinking. The fact is I point to the "black matter" used by the science community as the fixall that is their unexplained evidence for science being the base of universal life and order. I wouldn't push that on anybody and my belief is that religion is a personal relationship between one and god. I've lived in Muslim countries and had good debates on the subject, the bottom line is that its the corruption of religion that causes conflict, all the major religions preach tolerance and compassion. I find it very interesting when my friends of high intellect make such a song and dance of attacking religion. I actually find it a compliment to religion based upon the fear of those who attack. In summary each to their own and dig and look for experience to guide you...
I like what Einstein said: I did not come to my understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe with my rational mind and... A human being is part of the whole that we call the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest- a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness. This illusion is a prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for only the few people nearest us. I must admit to teaching the Psychology of Religion at Uni. and what an interesting subject it is. Great thread this one.... lots of really good discussion etc... not bad for a football forum eh . I had to give a talk at a conference on men and mental health last week.. .and mine was entitled "Big boys should cry" anyway..... I spoke about how I have seen men cry , hug total strangers, and bow down before others.. at football matches. I think we all have a basic need to try and make sense of our lives and we all do it in different ways and there is a host of people who think they have found the answer or who have glimpsed something etc etc... It is bigger than us all this thing called life. I agree with what has been said above about how to live... to live in the best possible way... When I worked in Bhutan, which is a tibetan biddhist country, I asked the top buddhist lama about guilt ( i am designated a lapsed catholic you see) ... and he said it just doesnt exist in Buddhism.... so for all ex-catholics there is hope!
I am 230lbs male and I cried at the vic when Elton was singing last year I turned to the wife and said this is life, this is real, this is me..... We should all let go when we feel the need.... Yes and this means that to me Watford FC can be a religious experience....
I was told that the Good Lord gave you a brain to use. On that basis I cannot accept certain things that some Christians find easy to believe and follow. I cannot accept that I should take every word written as being the "truth". For example it seems clear that the Adam and Eve story is the thoughts of people trying to find an explanation for the beginnings of life on the planet. The Old Testament in many ways is a history of the Jewish nation, it's battles and wanderings. The New Testament however is about a new beginning, when the leaders of the nation were told that they were getting it wrong. A set of principles that people should apply to their lives were not just written down, but examples were given. It is when people choose to bend those principles to suit their own desires that the troubles begin. I live in a secular country where should you wish to marry you have to conduct the official part at the town hall, but the vast majority of weddings then proceed to the Church for the Christian ceremony. The children still go to their first communions in good numbers and if you go into many church buildings (owned and maintained by the state) you will see that there is a thriving group of people working together for the good of their neighbours. The Church is not an institution set in stone, it has to be something that works it way through the increased knowledge that is available today. There are many things that we still have no idea about, and maybe never will, but as new innovations, such as drugs to treat illness become available, we can only say that those who discovered them used their brains and gained something more about the meaning of life. For me religion is an active part of everyday life, not something restrictive or just a subject for study. It is something practical for today, not something to only wish for after this life.
Okay, so I'm not going to leave it at that because I think you miss my point Leonardo and I respect your opinions enough to expand on the subject. It is not an arguement in the way you suggest but it succinctly divides Faith, which I have, and Religion - which I most certainly do not. Faith is believing in something and accepting it without factual basis. Religion is projecting a way of life as the only true path... I call it 'The Easily Led Club'. Religion is written by man as a way of preying on others weakness: '... if you do X you will go to Heaven and live in paradise forever but if you do Y you will burn in Hell forever'. Or some such nonsense. Everyone (except perhaps the truly psychotic) knows the difference between right and wrong, we don't need a book (or several) of rules to tell us so - nor do we really need others telling us that their interpretation of these things is right and the only way. Catholics and Protestant Christians in our own fair islands have been killing each other for years - and for what? Going back to the Reformation and the English Civil War I can understand it - England was fighting for it's freedom from the Holy Roman Empire (or at least the Papacy)... but now? We have moved on, alas some more than others. Not very Christian, yet this hatred is driven by religion -not by God. Do not confuse the two. Similarly Sunni and Shia Muslims happily blowing each other up when they are not blowing up Christians, Jews, flying planes into tall buildings or killing anyone else some crackpot Imam has told them will get them a harem of virgins and an eternity in paradise. Richard Dawkins, the well known commentator and academic, has no faith in God (though he does have faith in his atheism) but I would say he is far more 'Christian' than many of those in Church on a Sunday morning. The existance of God? Can't prove it but I believe it. That is Faith. It just seems crazy to me that this is it and humanity, as it stands, is the best 'life' can produce. We can do better but we fail to do so - all of us, be it by choice or otherwise. Religion is instigated by those who wish to hold power over those too weak to think for themselves or stand on their own. That is not to say that many good men and women preside in religious doctrine with anything other than the best intentions, just that I feel it to be misguided. God and religion. Separate and distinct. Often muddled. Should be kept apart.
This is a really good post and yes a very emotive subject. I like the advice that live your life the best you can and try to live day to day and enjoy everthing you can. Life is to short so enjoy but don't go overboard.... If there is a higher force then you are in the best position to justify what you have done over the years. Knowing my luck at the doors of a so called Heaven there will be "David Pleat" with a Luton Town scarf on asking the question before you enter. What team did you support on earth let me see !!!! No one will change this Hornet from being Yellow through and through.
I doubt very much that David Pleat will be anywhere near heaven, after his brush with the vice squad!
Excellent post Fez. I have no problem with belief in the existence of something ‘other’; indeed I would not be so arrogant as to believe that there is no ‘other’. However, the details of this ‘otherness’ are something else. Why should anyone who has not had a divine intervention (or ‘episode’ have any reason to rank any of the following as more or less credible than the others?: Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Evangelical) Islam (Shia/Sunni) Hinduism Sikhism Zoroastrianism Shintoism Wicca Norse gods Greek gods Egyptian gods Roman gods Native American sprit gods Voodoo gods Etc Etc Obviously, they cannot all be correct. To have faith that there is something higher, something ‘other’ is completely understandable, because no matter how many answers science comes up with, there will always be more questions (although I see no evidence whatever that said ‘other’ is benign, malign, or gives a monkey’s cuss). However, to have faith in the detail , and to accept the tenets creeds and pronouncements of self-appointed leaders of these sects, to me shows ether extreme arrogance that they know better than those who think otherwise, in the absence of credible evidence, or extreme gullibility. And it is the detail that gets us into trouble, is it not? The detail that says ‘God thinks this, God wants that, God wants you to live this way….God says those guys are the baddies….’
I work on the basis that people can follow what they like as long as it sdoesnlt harm anyone but it gets on my nerves when people eigher religious or non religious ram their beliefs down the throats of others. For the avoidance of doubt that isn't aimed at anyone on here - it's one of the most rational and intelligent debtes I've ever seen on the subject actually.
Perhaps science has, relatively recently, actually come up with 'The Answer'. Lovelock's Gaia Theory may not be fully accepted within the scientific community, but for a layman such as myself it offers a perfectly credible alternative to the concept of 'god' or a supreme being - one that requires none of the ridiculous obeisance that goes hand in hand with religion. I don't pretend to fully understand the science behind it but I don't have to - I can simply take from it what satisfies my mind, my curiosity, my search for understanding - call it what you will.
Reminds me of the quote Who wants to go to heaven where all the boring old farts are when all the interesting people are in the other place Seriously though.... I thinks to separate out a personal spirituality, which even a person who says they believe in no religion, can have, and the institution of religion is very important.
Jesus, Moses and an old man with a white beard are all playing golf one day. Moses goes first and his shot lands before a pond. He raises his club in the air and the water separates in the middle and the ball rolls through and lands on the green. Jesus goes next and his shot is heading straight for the middle of the pond. He raises his club in the air and the ball hovers (above the pond) he walks forward - walks on the water and then hits the ball from there onto the green. The old man goes next and hits his ball at a horrible angle straight over the fence and onto the main road, where it hits a passing lorry and bounces back where it lands in the middle of the pond - on a Lotus leaf. A frog grabs the ball in its mouth and then a passing eagle swoops down and picks up the frog with its claws and flies off with him. The frog is by now so frantic that he drops the ball and it lands directly in the hole. A hole in one ! Moses turns to Jesus in dismay and says to him in a despairing voice - It really makes me sick playing against your Father !
