Very diplomatically argued there, Chilco. Whilst I can understand the regret, I think SB just needs to look forward a bit more positively. There's no point in doing the what if's any longer. That was part of the grieving process of a team that has gone. Let them go. Perhaps in 20 seasons time we can look back [well, some of us will hope we can look back ] and think what if, from a safe distance. For example, what if Saints had bought a ready replacement for Steve Moran, all those years ago..? Or Steve Williams, when he was out at a critical time..? Could we have one, two or three championships in the history books..? It's one for debate. I did actually think that the ambition would be diluted, but it appears not. There's just a different approach, that's all. Cortese was absolutely vital for Saints, and those who aim cheap shots don't realise how much he pulled a dead club up. But now that era is over, perhaps for one more suited for pushing on. At least the vision has stayed from July 2009. And which other Saints board has ever dared to dream that large..?
I don't think wanting Cortese to have stayed is the same thing as not accepting the reality of what happened, or not looking forward positively. As I said, the start to this season has been great (albeit against largely questionable opposition), and our new players look good. Just not as good as last season. Sorry if it comes across as 'what ifs', it's more me just being a bit taken aback by the low regard that people seem to be seeing Cortese. A lot of what you said, Chilco, seems plausible. Fair point about Lambert, although I'm not sure the Chambers & Shaw deals were as clear-cut as you implied. Should Cortese have still been here, I'm unconvinced that the deals would have gone ahead so smoothly. What I definitely don't agree with though is Lallana and Lovren being 'vipers' who we're better off without. They only acted like that when they wanted to leave. This may an irreconcilable argument about interpretations, but to me it only seems like that they started acting up once they wanted to leave. 'Once they wanted to leave', to me, was from when Cortese left. Without Cortese at the helm, and without his ambitions, they saw no point in staying. It could be argued that Cortese would leave sooner or later, and if they're going to be 'vipers' whenever Cortese does leave, we may as well sell them now. However, I'd rather have got as many seasons out of them as possible while they're not 'vipers' (i.e. as long as Cortese and the top players and Pochettino etc are still around). Again, fair point about Koeman speaking out about his ambitions. I still feel though that the high ambitions were more explicit under Cortese, as opposed to Krueger, who would rather have 'sustainable development' (which is wonderful, but not as attractive to top players).
I will start by saying how grateful I am to Nicola for what he did for Saints, but I don't understand this fascination with spoken ambition. Someone made the comparison with Churchill...rousing speeches etc at the time it was needed. I have seen no sign that ambition has changed, it is just a difference in delivery of that message. Koeman is talking of sustainability...Nicola would have had those same constraints...unless he has millions we know nothing about. The players may have had an idea that ambitions had changed, but they were only looking for an excuse to get the moves they desired. After all, Adam would rather say he was leaving because of the board than tell Saints fans that we are a piddling little club and he is too good for us (which is what he basically meant).
Or it's a case (as Kruger has said previously) of delivering something instead of promising it. For all the talk of playing in the CL under Nicola, we were never really anywhere close and there was no clear path for us to realistically achieve it because the investment needed would have been enormous and (quite fairly) was not coming from Kat.
Quite right, Kat wasn't going to hand over the vast sums involved without having a bit more say in how it was spent, and Nicola couldn't stomach not being in sole charge, so he left.
I'm not going to say it was all because Cortese couldn't have absolute power, there were clearly a great number of factors going on that lead to the events of the last 9 months. But there is also growing evidence that his stewardship needed...intervention, to ensure the club was walking before it could run. I don't believe any business owner is 100% honest all the time, but in retrospect some of his promises went beyond ambition into, frankly, dreamland. This was going to have to happen eventually, one way or another. This just happens to be the way everything fell, with him being replaced, and the board we have now installed. I always knew we'd be fine as long as Les was here. He has a unabashed love of the game and of coaching/development. The day he walks, without decent explain action or replacement, that's when alarm bells should immediately ring.
I tell you though, Dodd and Williams are the only two exits of the 'transitional period' that I still can't quite fathom. I wonder what really happened there.
I'm sure both of you are right. Cortese will have had just the same constraints upon him as Krueger & Co. do now. Cortese will have had to have been sustainable, as will have anyone else. And I'm sure that Krueger would love it every bit as much as Cortese would have if we qualify for the Champions League. However, insofar as keeping our key players is concerned, that's besides the point. Cortese had a 'vision' and the players too spoke of this 'vision'. Cortese wanted us to move from the bottom of League 1 to the Premiership in 5 years. A few years into the 5-year plan, qualifying for the Champions League entered the equation. The players bought into this vision. Jose Fonte dropped down a division, believing we offered more chance of Premiership football than Crystal Palace. Gaston Ramirez, one of the hottest talents at the time, decided to join us above Liverpool. We were able to convince Victor Wanyama and Dani Osvaldo, established Champions League players, to join a recently promoted outfit. Remember 'the video' shown to prospective signings? As I say, while it probably lacked substance, it's the pulling power that was important. Whether or not Cortese's 'vision' had any more substance than Krueger is irrelevant. The point is, Cortese was compelling enough to pull top players towards the club, and keep them here too. This ambition, realistic or fanciful, made us a better team than I feel we are right now, or likely to become, under the current leadership.
Didn't we just sign a young international centre back from a Champions League team? Did I imagine that?
True, but that's a very one-sided way of looking at it. On the flip side, you could just as easily say we sold 2 of the best young defenders in England, perhaps in world football. We also sold our star defender, again, one of the best defenders in the Premier League. To replace them, we signed a 25-year old on loan who's rarely excelled and had a poor season last season, a defender in Alderweireld who warmed the bench last season while not being able to squeeze Miranda out of the starting XI (a player who couldn't even make his country's World Cup squad), and a centre back in Gardos who nobody had ever heard of before this summer. That's not to say I agree with the perspective I just wrote. I'm just saying, we sold some bloody good players, and signed new players who arguably, while good players, are not of the same caliber as those who departed.
I find this hard to believe. A better team than we are likely to become? Well, if we finish top 8 again I hope you accept you are wrong.
I think we have got incredible value for both our ins and outs, while the 'squad' this year will be better over a season than the 'team' of last year. This was really what needed to happen, no matter what. We all knew how threadbare the squad was last season and this could be seen in the drop in form as soon as injuries hit. The overhaul would have been necessary even had Cortese been here, with the only way to fund it being through player sales. It may not have happened to the same degree, we may have kept Lallana and/or Lovren, but it still would have been needed for progress.
I did not mean that we will never do better than last season. If we finish 6th, that wouldn't prove me wrong. What I mean is, on a season by season basis, I believe we would have done better under Cortese than the new leadership. I know that's unfalsifiable insofar as no matter how well we do, technically, I could always say 'we still would have done better under Cortese'. But I can't talk for the future, only for the present, and in the present, I feel we'd have a better squad should Cortese have stayed. Fair point James that we have improved the depth since last season. We needed that, I agree. But I don't agree that we wouldn't have improved the depth should Cortese have stayed. IMO, of the key 5 players that departed, we would have only lost Lambert, boyhood dream and whatnot. Maybe Shaw too, which could fund further additions to enhance the depth of the squad, if it's true that he was promised a move (which I'm sceptical about). Even without selling Shaw though, we could have still added to the depth of the squad, we're not exactly struggling financially. I know we were in a bit of debt at the tail end of last season, but our debt is dwarfed by the income that clubs receive nowadays, particulaly the TV revenue. Going on the last couple of transfer windows as well, I think it's an unfounded assertion that we wouldn't have been able to add to the squad depth. The way I see it, we would have kept our key players, while making a small number of quality additions to add depth to the team, as we did every summer. That would be a better situation that we are in now (although I reiterate, we're still in a good situation, but it could still have been better).
I really believe that at the end of the season you wouldn't swap Toby or gardos for lovren who hasn't impressed so far but we will have to wait and see What is clear is the club is a happier place to be without the fear Cortese created. He was what the club needed but as others have said we have moved on and I think up.
The atmosphere around the club has been mentioned a lot on this thread. With no disrespect to the employees of SFC, I couldn't give a monkeys if there boss says good morning to them or whatever. If the bad atmosphere spread to the dressing room, there'd be cause for concern, but I always got the impression there was a great spirit in the dressing room for the last 5 or so years.
One thing that is certain is that I'm more in love with the club now than I have been in the last 20 years or so. It just feels like the Club has got its' soul back, and the fact that it has retained the ambitions of the last few years is great. I'm not a Cortese basher, but there was always a feeling that he was a bit of a cold fish (you just couldn't see him getting in his shorts and going on a charity cycle/walk, bad for his ruthless image!) There has always been a feeling that "he is a bastard, but he's our bastard" amongst the fans. Yes, he was the right Chairman at the right time, but we must look forward now with confidence in an owner and Board that want to do the best by the club, a capable Manager and probably the strongest Saints squad for 30 years.
