Cosicave sums it up for what I would say, but I differ in saying patriotism is healthy. I did do a wall of text but my computer crashed. I study psychology and they point out that people join groups to improve social status with the influences of family and friends "manipulating" their mindset. They will develop prejudice as they point out differences and flaws of the other group to show why their group is more superior than the other. Patriotism can be singled out as halfarsed racism as in similarity for somebody not hating a Chinese person, but wouldn't want them in their family marrying their daughter. They don't care unless it affects them personally. I find it's sad that the pressure from negative opinions of family members transfer it to their children and thus the cycle would continue. I was lucky that my parents didn't pressure me into supporting Britain as a whole and have my own opinions about different individuals, other than nationality and race which most families point out. Individual prejudice is healthy since your making your own opinion about people and not being influenced by anybody. National prejudice and racial prejudice is not healthy since you are attacking "pointing out" things that they can't physically change and both are very much identical, yet society views them differently, one as fun and one as socially wrong, again society saying what is and what is not wrong even if it's double standards. There is prejudice within Britain with regard to Germany as a whole, they dislike them because their parents and Grandparents have history with them and transfer that dislike to their children which carries on to us and have a certain dislike form Germany, a very: Us vs them mentality which is the norm for those that play the game. Point out another reason why you started to support a British driver/team, other than involving your family, your friends, media and "race" influencing you to do so. You needed to be part of a group so you joined "team GB" as you thought you needed to do so to be socially accepted, all for survival. I could go in more detail and pick at this subject far far more, to show national prejudice on par with somebody picking a certain race because he too is the same race and is the only similarity they can pick out, yet both could support a complete ****er. The fact is national patriotism is now becoming outdated and we will all develop a more european/worldwide prejudice sooner than you think. And who knows after that with this ever expanding universe. I also had a good laugh since Bruce McLaren was from New Zealand so McLaren is in fact New Zealand and not British, really you should be supporting Williams and Red Bull as they were both started by a British person.
Red Bull is owned by an austrian and race under thier flag. for my 2 pence ive never concidered F1 to be a sport pitting nations against each other. Its all about the best talent so people should be allowed to support who ever... we all live on the same planet!
Stewart-Jaguar-Red Bull Looks more British than McLaren as their base has always been Milton Keynes regardless of the little flag on the pole.
Being patriotic means I must support the likes of John terry, Cashley Cole, Wayne and Waynetta Rooney et al. stick your patriotism up your arse, these people have nothing in common with me, and pretty much stand for all I despise, greedy, self-centred egotists.
So am I allowed to still support Button and Hamilton, or does that make me a racial-ist? Because I can't not support them for being British because that is again racist It's a no win situation, so support who ever you like, no matter who they are or where they are from
I just don't think what Trueblue is trying to say is healthy to be honest. Racism is not an issue here, but extreme patriotism, and generalising users on this forum can alienate other users on this forum, that is not the way forward. We have to understand that we have users that follow different drivers, open minds + respect is better.
I think you make a very good point about my use of the word 'healthy'; and indeed, it was an over-simplification based on 'instinctive values' (if there is such a thing). What I was getting at is the tendency for gregarious animals (which includes most mammals - and of course, humans) to band together in what is essentially a manifestation of the 'survival instinct'. Ultimately, this is 'selfish' (done with a certain disregard for non-members of the group) in that one first considers one's own survival and then how best this may be served. It is very closely related to the tendency for sheep to herd together. It is also closely related to the tendency for wolves to hunt in packs. 'Healthy' is therefore a rather subjective term, but I very much meant it from the above 'selfish gene' point of view. Personally, like others have mentioned, I tend to resist and despise these tendencies; preferring to believe I have somehow (conceitedly) 'risen above it'. I also benefited from independently minded parents, with a relatively broad outlook, subsequently reinforced by my own travels. Nonetheless, I realise this is not the norm for the vast majority, even in 'the western world'. Hypothesis I wonder if people who are interested in motor-racing are more likely to be more 'independent' in their thinking because they are more likely to be interested in travel, risk taking and adventure? I wonder if this may account - at least in part - for some of the more independent thinkers of this thread? Perhaps SilverArrow could offer an opinion on this?
the big difference between how we view germany and the others is we had a war with germany after the invention of movies/TV, so nearly every german ever portrayed upto Schindler has always been in a negative role, and more than a few have been pure propaganda movies.
I think there has been more German-point-of-view war films that you think, such as Downfall, Das Boot, Stalingrad, All Quiet On The Western Front. Beside I do not really think nowadays people's view of Germans are influenced by the War, maybe only in a jokey kind of way like it is for France as well.
I don't think the England/Germany rivalry has so much to do with the war so much as the fact that they have pretty much given us a good stuffing in every football tournament that we've met them in since 1966. I don't think there's anything wrong with those kind of national rivalries... it makes things interesting for both sides... Just so long as hate doesn't enter in to the equation, but there'll always be an element of that from an idiotic minority in any sport.
In my opinion, personally... I'm not a people's person, a boys holiday for me is going out on holiday by myself to LA or something and not being surrounded by mates getting bladerd in Ibiza, I prefer my own company. In F1 as we know, it's 1 driver against others so a "me vs them" personality, where as in football it's treated more like "us vs them" we mostly support drivers unlike teams. So instead of being dependent in life with others to improve social status we see it as a sole objective to go for by ourselves and make our own unique group, so we thus don't need anybody else to help us in life. Though I'm a pure PURE! F1 fan in the sense I don't watch any other sport, also the fact there were no F1 fans at my school since they always watched football and only jumped on the band wagon when a Brit was doing well. So in my way of my relation to f1 and my mindset, is I saw f1 as individualism and not a tool to make friends or be socially accepted like in football. After leaving school I have become more and more an individual and I enjoy it more the further I get away from these "football" groups as I find it very fake and just a cult having their strings pulled. Joining a football group years ago never clicked with me, so being around "friends" supporting 1 team doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. Also clubs don't die, drivers do, so maybe I personally consider all drivers I support just a temporary event in my life and will easily disregard them. I can't speak for others, so I can't give a REAL! Opinion as with individuals we are very varied and not easily targeted as just a "Man u fan"
Eternal, I just think you don't like me cause I show up your lack of patriotism. What about all the Italian fans that support Ferrari? Are they racist? Can you really imagine them supporting McLaren? How many german fans support Hamilton? We should take pride that we own F1 (Bernie). And that we have the best teams. Next time one of our boys stands on the podium and our anthem plays, stand up and sing along. Honestly, you'll surprise yourself.
As the ratings in every country show, when their team/driver wasn't winning except Britain and France, they stayed the same or improved. When Schumacher left, the Germans still held a firm fan base before Vettel stardom. The Italians still watched in their millions whoever drove the car and how ever good the car was. The Spanish still strong even after 07 and without a WDC win. Japan love their F1 even without a Japanese driver leading or team. Yet the British fan base slowly disappeared in the schumi dominance era and weirdly came back when Lewis came around. The best teams? Wait? Are you not the guy preaching every Brit needs to Support Williams and McLaren even though we have half the grid based in GB. Make your mind up true blue a flag, a anthem doesn't decide where a team comes from and a nation doesn't make a person. I'm not a number, I'm a free man! Btw our national anthem sucks arse and there's a reason why 90% of the population don't sing it anymore, national patriotism is becoming outdated and it's falling apart, and no matter how hard Cameron and his white collar buddies try, won't stop this multinational train coming in and taking over the social construction that you try and wind us up about. Yes yes being involved in Europe is a bad thing, because our government and media says so with their spoon stiring the pot hoping enough people can push a referendum ONLY! to get a better deal from France and Germany as a country trying to make out we have a legitimate issue. Face it, the rich gits over here just don't like having their balls grabbed by bigger fish in Europe making the laws, so they try and make it out patriotism is a must have and that "Our identities are at stake fellow Britains" Why? Why must I be seen as British? I won't fight for it if a war broke out, it's just land owned by somebody else so really I'm not losing anything here.
Disagree with this, ours is best because it's short, and when McLaren win it only gets played once. I'm a Vettel fan but find the German-Austrian combo incredibly tedious, I usually take the dogs for a quick walk while it's playing. Don't agree with all the patriotism crap though. It's an incredibly shallow and superficial reason for supporting someone, especially in F1 as it isn't an international sport. The drivers drive for themselves first and foremost, then their teams, then sponsors. Country is fourth at best.
