What about the Guineas? St James Palace? Where was Toronado in the top 2yo races last season? Retire the two of them today, who is worth more? Exactly Dewhurst, Guineas, St James Palace Dawn Approach has already secured his stallion career, European champion 2yo and as it stands, leading 3yo miler, Toronado has won one race, when Manning kicked too early and he had the advantage of a jockey who is worth at least a length in every race at the track. You can put a line through yesterday and the Derby for Dawn Approach, he has still achieved far more than Toronado and must still be considered the better horse until proven otherwise.
Sorry Joe but what has any of that got to do with which is the better miler at present and going forward from here? I'm lost.
PS I replied to your post before you edited it Joe. By all means put a line through yesterday's race. It has no bearing on my opinion.
So you are arguing that one race has changed everything and now Toronado must be considered the better miler? All that went before is meaningless because Toronado finally won his first of 3 encounters? If he goes on to do what Ravens Pass done with HTN then you can make a case, but at this stage you can have nothing more than a hunch, YOU think he is the better miler now based on one race, as it stands, Dawn Approach is the best 3yo miler and that is simply the facts.
When we look back on Toronado and Dawn Approach and ask who was the better horse, Toronado will need to win the QE11 and BC Mile this season to even make it any sort of debate whatsoever. Coventry, National Stakes, Dewhurst, Guineas, St James Palace vs Sussex Stakes Its a no contest at the minute.
Neither of them are currently looking particularly good anyway. DA is either over the top (possible) or he's just an average classic winner. Toronado beat him fairly easily last time out so as of August 12th 2013 he is the better horse. Neither had excuses last time did they? Boris - you're making a fair point about which horse has achieved more but Ron's talking about which is the better horse at this moment in time and it's fairly obvious Toronado is better at the moment.
I think Ron's point is that he believes TORONADO to be the improver out of the two. Personally I feel DAWN APPROACH has been poorly campaigned and that has not helped his development. Had he been campaigned purely over a mile I think he could have been unbeatable this season. Shocking decision to run in the Derby and too many races. Still love the horse though......shame Godawful got hold of him!
That's a fair point Stick but in my mind I can't go rating horses on how good they could be if they'd had different prep and different race planners.
That is correct stick, as per my post pre the Goodwood race. And in that race Toronado was always going the better and could be called the winner some way out. I see Timeform still have Dawn Approach rated 1lb higher than Toronado.
I know what some people are thinking, that Toronado has improved past Dawn Approach, obviously if you look at Dawn Approach on Sunday then its easy to say that but after Goodwood, I was still in no doubt that Dawn Approach would beat Toronado again the next time they met. I thought they set the race up perfectly for Toronado and Richard Hughes gave him a perfect ride while things didnt go to plan for DA. If you take that into consideration, how much has Toronado actually improved? A nose? They both are what they are, there isnt a lot between them and they have both improved since the start of the season. Toronado has been campaigned much better though and maybe that played a part in Goodwood as well. If it wasnt for Sundays debacle, I dont see how anyone can say with conviction that Toronado has improved past Dawn Approach, it was one race, in hindsight, Goodwood was always going to be Toronados race especially with Hughes. What happened to Dawn Approach at the weekend has messed things up, but if they both get to Ascot for the QE11 in top condition, then I would expect Dawn Approach to win. Whether they can get Dawn Approach back to that level remains to be seen but as ive said before, Toronado will need to do something pretty special before the season is out to even challenge Dawn Approach in a game of who was the better horse.
OK Joe I've got around 150,00 that says Dawn Approach never beats Toronado again. That's 150,000 rep points. please log in to view this image
Looking at his pedigree, it wouldn't surprise me if Toronado could step up to 10f. That would make it interesting if he went and won the Champion Stakes.
I found it easy to say before Goodwood Joe and even easier to believe after Goodwood. Sunday's race didn't figure in my thinking. It's interesting because, based on their last 2 meetings, there ain't a great amount between them and they have given us two exciting finishes that we were "promised". I've a feeling they won't meet again. I would imagine that the Toronado stable believe they have proved a point and might decide to step up to 10f. Pure speculation of course.
Toronado started his three-year-old campaign early with a facile victory in the Craven Stakes, which saw him instated as principal market rival to champion two-year-old Dawn Approach at Newmarket. Jim Bolger’s colt went straight to the 2000 Guineas and gave the trainer his first victory in the race, extending his unbeaten sequence to seven whilst Richard Hannon’s charge disappointed and excuses were made. Dawn Approach then made an ill-judged trip to Epsom, probably driven by the commercial thinking of one of his owners; where his race was over long before Tattenham Corner. At Royal Ascot, the pair met for a second time with Dawn Approach just victorious after Toronado was impeded at a crucial stage of his run. Many of us suspected that Toronado would have won but for the incident a furlong from the post. One might have expected Dawn Approach to try for the Eclipse Stakes if one of his owners wished to improve his commercial value but instead a third meeting was slated in the Sussex Stakes. At Goodwood both horses ran to their merits in a trouble-free race and Dawn Approach was beaten readily by Toronado, who was able to track his rival and pick him off in the shadow of the post. Despite the hard race in Sussex, Dawn Approach turned out eleven days later in Deauville and was comprehensively beaten, trailing in as the third-best three-year-old behind runner-up Olympic Glory and supposed wonder horse Intello; so that form is easily ignored. Timeform’s ratings allegedly rely on the stopwatch and a bare assessment of the form. It is clear, therefore, that Dawn Approach attained his best rating at Newmarket and has not been re-assessed down for any of his subsequent performances. Clearly Toronado put up his best performance at Goodwood but Timeform have left Dawn Approach on his 2000 Guineas rating despite that form now looking very ordinary. If the two meet in the QEII, I expect that the bookies will try to put them up initially as joint favourites and see which attracts the most money. Assuming that the going in October is no inconvenience to either, I expect Toronado to win the decider as he is the improving horse that has not been over campaigned. That is just my opinion.
Where do you place Olympic Glory? That can't have been bad form at all, even if Dawn approach didn't give his running. I can't see Toronado getting 10f. I came out fairly strongly on that when people were touting him for the Derby. His dam's side has a couple of too speedy horses for me to feel confident he'd get 10f. You of course never know until they try it.
Olympic Glory could be the forgotten horse. Clearly something was amiss when he ran no sort of race at all in the Poulains (French 2000 Guineas) at Longchamp in May; and he reversed the form with the third that day (Intello) on Sunday. I think there has to be a good chance that he will go for the Prix Du Moulin on 15 September, although no word yet whether Moonlight Cloud (winner last year) will be there.
