Prix De L'Arc De Triomphe 2011

Who would you have training So You Think, as opposed to one of the best horse trainers around?

 

kiyonemakibi, I honestly don't know on the spur of the moment.
All I know is I have to assume Aidan O'Brien used a Derby winner as a pacemaker- to ensure a good gallop for SYT. To lay that far back for so long in a race like the Arc- with a horse like SYT ( which has shown 'wind it up' acceleration) is stupid to me. The horse was simply not given a fair chance to win and, if I'd laid out all that cash for purchase and training of SYT, then I would be very, very unhappy! Some will blame the jockey but O'Brien employs him.
As an aside, I'm not qualified to rate trainers, but the Coolmore operation is guaranteed a good measure of 'statistical' success-given their huge outlay. No, I'm not a fan of their ever increasing multiple Group One entries and runners and, to me, using a Derby winner as a pacemaker is farcical and undermines all those hundreds of trainers who would give their right arm just to have a horse good enough to compete in a top race.

 

Many a good race has been missed out on for that reason Odddog, it perplexes me every time. If you are going to enter a horse for a race you must satisfy yourself that they weill get the trip if you are satisfied enough to enter him then ride him as if he does get the trip. William Buick cost me a decent pay out on the first day of Royal ascot this year in the stayers race by holding his horse up in such a terrible position only for it to run on like a train. He found out in the final furling that the horse gets the trip easily, sadly he found it out too late for punters.

This said i think the winner today won on merit in as much as he was not stopping. I think the form of his previous wins was overlooked due to the opposition but he looked good today. I do feel it was a very average Arc though.

 

Valid points Tam and no doubt AO'B is vicariously liable for the actions of SH.

Coolmore historically run fewer horses than than Godolphin in G1 races and have less than 25% their overall firepower,when satelite operations are considered.Don't forget when Sea the Stars won the Derby,Coolmore had the 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th home,all in the prize money.I frankly applaud them for their support of the race and indeed without it,STS would have won by 6l from a field of six runners.Also worth mentioning their pacemakers have finished placed in the last two Epsom renewals,ergo running on merit.

Interesting that Cecil's remarks about his G3 winning pacemaker running in the QE11 as a rabbit but "may not be needed" have not been picked up on.Strange how we focus on those we don't favour a lot of the time.

AO'B is very much a marmite man to a large extent,but he,and his employers exert a positive influence on racing.

They are solvent,monogamous democrats to boot.

 

Agree with a lot of the things said. In particular, i think OddDog's comment that SYT was ridden to get the trip is possibly true. I just can't understand why Heffernan didn't close up down the false straight. The gaps were there and far from being the obvious thing to do, it was the essential thing to do! I can fully understand Lemaire sitting pretty on Sarafina, who has one decisive electric finishing kick, but SYT, as Tamerlo said, is a horse with 'wind it up acceleration. If you watch the replay i think he is only just hitting top gear as they cross the line.

Not for one minute am i saying he would have beaten the winner, who was given a perfect ride from a perfect draw, and was immensely impressive, but i am quite sure that So You Think should have been a lot closer than he was.

 

Dexter, very fair points. Yes, it's fair enough on the one hand to say that Coolmore support racing-reference their 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in STS Derby. The other side of the coin however, is would you ever want patronage and exclusivity to such an extent that you end up with a six or seven runner Derby? Personally I wouldn't want it. Some would argue that, without Coolmore, Godolphin, and a few others, racing would be nothing. It depends on whether you want the amount of influence they exert-or a wider spectrum.
As for being "solvent, monogamous democrats," I agree with the first; don't know about the second; but democrats? Not autocrats?

Bluesky-well said, especially.."then ride him as if he does get the trip."

 

Tam ...the second one could well be up for debate..never knew a solvent democrat who wasn't up for a good polishing from a luvly lady/coolmore intern!!..just hope they have discreet dry cleaners.

 

Dexter, touche!

 

the sectional timing is interesting.

danedream took 12.1 secs for the final furlong.that is slow ,then shareta took over 13 secs.this was a suicide pace set by treasure beach.it was run at a milers pace!

what you saw was pure stamina today.the likes of sarfina,galikova and meandre this season have done 11 secs+ for the final furlong on slower going at slow-even pace races,they were simply not used to such a fast gallop that they just couldnt quicken.sarafina in the arc trial hit 2f out in 2m10secs.today they hit it at 2mins!!

the first 5 home all have form over 1m4f of testing , strongly run races or further,yet turn of foot horses like sarafina,galikova and meandre have never been tested beyond 1m4f or at 1m4f in a strongly run race,bar sarafina in last years arc!
sarafina as done 11.11 secs in the arc trial ,meandre 11.8 secs in the grand prix de paris.there speed was just blunted todays by the mad pace.

its no wonder danedream was only 4 from 11 going into the arc.these type of fast pace races are rare,i mean why the hell did she lose to testerone 3 runs back?because it was a speed test!

now part japanese owned,the japan cup surely as to be logical choice.fast pace of big field japanese group 1's plus firm ground,if she went for the breeders cup she would struggle imo.

danedream is good,but versatility she is not,she is just pure stamina.

 

Did anyone else come away with a complete feeling of the anti-climactic after today's Arc? I've been following racing for over 25 years and I don't think I've ever watched a race in complete disbelief as what was happening (apart from the Grand National that never was). It seemed to me that the likes of Seamus Heffernan and CP Lemaire rode their mounts to sleep almost to Mogadon proportions. I kept waiting for Lemaire to start getting his finger out on Sarafina but maybe he thought he was riding in the Prix Du Cadran instead? Granted, the winner won it easily but the presence of a complete rag in 2nd place leaves a major question mark over the form. All in all, it was a very unsatisfactory race.

Also, is anyone else pissed off with the camera work employed by Equidia? I've noticed recently with French racing that, even using the full width of my widescreen TV, I still can't get the full picture to fit on my screen. When today's Arc winner went for home she disappeared completely from the left hand side of my screen, giving the impression that the finish was being fought out by the placed horses. The camera work at the finish of the Foret was also piss poor, as the second finishing line is beyond the stationary finishing camera itself. Somebody rang in to ATR during On The Line to complain about it so I'm not alone. Fecking French don't have a clue.

 

I think we all knew this was a very open Arc without any standout horses.And then after all the crap leading up to the race it was never going to be a race to savour.So therefore it was no real surprise to see a 20-1 shot bolt up.I wouldnt totally discount the winner just yet,she might turn out to be outstanding but i highly doubt it.

Yeh they dont have a good record when it comes to camera work.Obviously my namesake who only appeared in the last furlong or so in one of the most famous Arc's ever.

 

Yes if there were stamina doubts which I find ridiculous, then I don't see why they would have used Treasure Beach to make the running. SYT was beaten fair and square today, the draw probably wasn't ideal, but a truly great horse will find a way to win regardless of the draw. Top quality horse, but no superstar.

I wonder where they will go with him next. A drop back down to division 2 and a crack at the Cox Plate, would probably be the ideal way to end his career on a high, having won the race twice already

 

Shergar, I don't think he would meet the quarantine regulations for the Cox Plate at this stage. Personally, I think So You Think was vastly overrated. He won a mickey mouse race in the Tattersalls Gold Cup, he had to work hard to beat Workforce at Sandown (which were hardly ideal conditions for Stoute's horse), and he also had to work hard to overcome a useful (but not outstanding) filly in Snow Fairy at Leopardstown, although having said that, I still think that Seamie Heffernan gave him a poor ride today. I'd love to see him take on Frankel in the QE II next because the Coolmore team keep bleating on about the "amazing pace" he has, though somehow I doubt it will happen. Remember prior to Royal Ascot they were saying how they could have run him in the Queen Anne because of his great speed? Well this is the ideal opportunity for them to test out their theory but I'll be staggered if it happens. It wouldn't surprise me if SYT meets with an "injury" and never runs again.

 

I've just seen the replay of the race for the first time, and I have to say, that I can't believe that either Sarafina or So You Think could have won that race yesterday, no matter how they were ridden. The hectic pace carved out by Treasure Beach played perfectly into the hands of the wonderful filly Danedream. As stated above, it would be churlish to try and take anything away from her brilliant performance. She sat mid field, covered up nicely, then was produced before the the back markers had their chance to make any serious ground. As great the win was by the horse, her efforts were matched by her jockey Andrasch Starke. Little has been made of his cold ride, which is a bit sad really. He deserves a huge pat on the back for his no nonsense exhibition.

Now to get down to a ticklish subject, the riding and training of So You Think. I'm more than a little reticent to make comment here, for fear of sounding as though I've been forced to swallow a palate of sour grapes, and now need a place to vomit the fermented bile building up in my distended gut. Bugger it, I'm just going to come out with it, and in doing so, cop any flack that comes my way. Despite his great record in world racing, Aiden O'Brien is, like the rest of us, prone to making the occasional mistake or two. He's a person who has in the past, been man enough to admit when he's made a hash of things. I don't know what he's had to say about his hand in the performance of So You Think, but personally, I think it was substandard. For mine, he's had some real issues with just how this horse should be ridden. The early wins were easy pickings, but it was his tactics that brought the horse undone in his defeat at the hands of the talented Rewilding. He had the animal ridden in the same manner as a lot of the top flight horses the UK, try and break hearts in a last man left standing plan. This is not, and has never been the way to ride the horse. So severe was the backlash, that a whole new set of instructions were handed to his rider for the Eclipse. He was ridden very close, then held up until the furlong, then let loose. It was a whole different ball game.

Before I go any further, I'd like to take issue with the comment that So You Think was just a big fish in a small pond, when it comes to assessing his Australian form. There is no getting away from the fact that Australia, while a monster country in area, it is indeed looked upon by some, as a second rate country as far as the class of horse is concerned. This is trend of thinking that is largely built on ignorance. One only has to take a look at the record of some of the wonderful horses who have made the trip down under, to see what can happen in this part of the world. Again, if any real effort is made to chase down the thoughts of the top flight trainer's in the UK, on G1 racing in Australia, it will be quickly be made apparent, that they think Australian racing is a hard nut to crack. The reason for my rebuttal of the slight thrown at Australian racing, is because it gives me the chance to further give credence the opinion that So You Think is struggling in his new owner's hands. Any ten minutes spent on YouTube will give an insight into how the horse should be handled when he competes. In races of 2,000m and less, he's led or been just off the pace. This is not the habit of a plodder who needs to be dropped out in a 2400m event. He didn't need to lead yesterday, but he should have been up in the first half dozen in running. He still would not have won, as the winner was absolutely brilliant, but he probably would have run second.

Oddy made the statement that he'd have the horse out the Ballydoyle gate El pronto. For mine, he'd never have been there in the first place. The man who had the keys to this horse, is an old bloke in Australia. He has never been all that keen to travel over seas, but if he'd been the man still in charge, I firmly believe that the UK racing fan would have seen a more dynamic So You Think. One of the things that really astounded me about his new connections, was the manner in which they turned their backs on those who knew the horse in Australia. The one man who'd seen the progress of the animal, from yearling to multiple G1 winner, his Australian trainer, has stated that he was never, at any stage contacted by Aiden O'Brien or his staff, for any possible news or tips on what was, or wasn't done, as far as his training program was concerned. Stupidity or blatant overconfidence? Either, it wasn't in the best interests of the horse. I wonder how Dato Tan Chin Nam is feeling right now?

 

Good morning, Cyclonic.
You have made a well-reasoned and sensible reply.
I totally agree with the way you feel SYT should be ridden. As I see it, horses can only sustain their top speed 'attack' for a certain length of time; but some horses can do it for longer than others.
The Arc is definitely a difficult race to ride, normally because of large fields on a turning track. The danger is obvious for the 'hold up' speed merchants. If they leave it too late-or are checked at a crucial stage- then Bob's your uncle! Two 'speed horses' from the past, Mtoto and Park Top, were classed as unlucky losers. I tend to agree about the former but not the latter who couldn't quite get to Levmoss' sustained gallop. Mtoto just had too much traffic to negotiate and Mace Roberts left it just a bit too late to make his challenge IMO. The hold up horses tend to give the impression they are unlucky when they are flying at the finish, but you can't do it at both ends of the race.
Re. yesterday's race, I just cannot believe AOB's tactics. Treasure Beach was either ridden as a pacemaker- or forced the pace because that gave him the best chance of success.Either way, SYT should, as you say, have been more prominent . Both he and Snow Fairy were doing their best work at the finish, but they had to be- given how they were ridden.
Greatpilsudski classes Danedream as "pure stamina." He has a good point but stamina like that has to be admired. She had the speed to lay up just behind the frenetic pace and then quickened away really well- her performance was identical to that of Dahlia when the latter won The King George as a three year old. I just hope she turns out to be half as good as her!
Like you say, Danedream's jockey rode a good race and didn't get much praise.
A final point or two worth making....
Many people say it was "a funny sort of race" yesterday- but was that partly because most people wanted and expected a different result?
One thing's for sure. If SYT had turned in Danedream's performance, the racing brethren, media-and I suspect yourself- would have been drooling for weeks about it. Danedream won't get the same attention, but good luck to her!

 

Really excellent comments. Would take issue with one remark by Tamerlo, namely "against Group 1 mediocrity". I don't buy that at all. If anyone has the bock (German slang word for "in the mood to" or "inclined to") to do it (I certainly don't) then please go through each and every one of the runners' formlines. This was not, repeat not, a poor or sub-standard Arc as suggested in Tamerlo's remark, and one or two asides by other members on adjacent threads. The winner won in a very fast time, was superbly ridden and trained by a highly-respected trainer over here (former excellent champion jockey too).
There were some astonishingly poor rides, but take nothing away from the winner, Danedream is good. She'll probably end-up at stud in Japan as a half-interest in her was sold to a Japanese guy a week or two ago. Very astute!
In closing, do agree with OddDog's comment about SYT being ridden to conserve his stamina. Dear God, the horse finished third in the Melbourne Cup (as he said) on soft ground(?) as a very young horse, after winning a Group 1 a few days before! Stamina doubts? So ein Scheisse (what a load of crap).

(Wife did a wonderful Indian curry for lunch yesterday, so house had an aura of the sub-continent, plus a definite smell of burnt pockets............mine! Still must press-on. See you good people Cheltenham time; enough for me at present! I wish you all successful punting and keep well!)

 

Morning All

Don't remember too many in here giving the eventual winner any positive mentions last week and whilst the focus will be on the riding of the favs, interference etc you have to admit the winner was impressive.
That said, a surprise winner always has us reaching for the form book and when she beats a supposed pacemaker/rag question marks appear everywhere.
That said, the first 2 are both 3 years old fillies so was it the weight allowance ?
Have these two improved massively ?
I don't know where I stand on this but when I watched last years Marcel Bousac the performance of Danedream didn't scream 'future Arc winner' at me...

 

Now that the dust has settled I have had time to consider this year's Arc. The winner, although getting weight in each race, has now won three G1s by 5L, 6L and 5L on different going. The Grosser Preis von Baden has proved a good trial in the past (Marienbard won both and other German horses have run well in the Arc) and is run usually four or five weeks before the Arc.
Nearly all TV and press 'experts' said that this year's Longchamp trials were all impressive; could this have something to do with the 'failures' of their winners. Is three weeks to short a gap between the trials and the Arc?
I am loathe to jump on the bandwagon about the effect of the draw however over the last 20 years a low draw would seem to be advantagous.
I agree with Tam's post immediately above; had Sarafina, SYT or one of the French three year olds produced Danedream's performance we would have been hailing a superstar.
Anyway, a 25/1 winner and a 25/1 E/W third have enabled me to approach Auteuil in November with hope in my heart!

 

Grizzly: Quite right, OddDog and I live here, and we both missed it. Think I did have quick look at her form but, although very good, did not think her capable of winning an Arc. Stuck with Galinda and SYT, the first on misplaced loyalty as there really was no way she'd run well on the fast ground, and well, SYT, dunno, have always hated criticizing jockeys, but..........Cheers!