Match Day Thread Premier League, Cups & Euro Watch

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by DiogoJotaSuper, Jul 6, 2018.

?

Result...

  1. Home win

  2. Draw

  3. Away win

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  1. InBiscanWeTrust

    InBiscanWeTrust Rome, London, Paris, Rome, Istanbul, Madrid
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    I guess it’s more if someone covers there mouth and someone makes a complaint then it looks bad.

    I don’t think suggestion is every convo behind their hands will be punished but yeah might be tricky.
     
    #31821
  2. Zanjinho

    Zanjinho Club World Champions. Boom!
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    My lad just asked me who I want to see win the CL now we're out. Thought about who was left in...

    Chelsea - **** no. Can't stand the ****s!
    PSG - absolutely not, can't stand Neymadge.
    Real Madrid - <laugh>
    Man City - nope, would propel them to another level.


    ****!
     
    #31822
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  3. InBiscanWeTrust

    InBiscanWeTrust Rome, London, Paris, Rome, Istanbul, Madrid
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    Prob psg or Madrid tbh. Although if Madrid wins would make zidane a record incredible in the competition and I Dno, just don’t like the guy as a manager.
     
    #31823
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  4. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Playing devil's advocate here, if a player covers his mouth when speaking how do we know if he's said something racist, except for the word of the perceived victim?

    I'm not talking about this specific case, but just generally.

    There's a potential minefield here with the whole issue.

    1) If someone is racially abused and the ref hasn't heard it, then what should the victim (and his team) do in that instance during a game? Should there be a protocol in place e.g. the game is suspended and an investigation carried out? But then, what if it's not true and you're suspending games unnecessarily.

    2) If someone covers their mouth and says something, which no one else hears, how do you prove they said it? If we have people being punished on simply the word of the perceived victim, it's open to abuse and human nature suggests that will happen.

    Another suggestion is that all players are mic'd up (under the collar for example). You can literally fit a pea sized mic on a shirt and all conversations recorded but NOT broadcast. If the game goes without incident, then the recordings are discarded but if there is an incident, only the ref gets to hear the exchange between the players. The only real problem I see with this solution is that it would only really work in the top tier of football e.g. PL, CL, Europy, La Liga, Serie A etc but not the lower leagues.
     
    #31824
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  5. sadiosalah

    sadiosalah Active Member

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    There is precedent on this. All athletes who test positive for a masking agent get a severe punishment like 2 to 4 year ban. Diuretics for example are sometimes found in the blood of athletes. Now you could argue that there was no evidence of the performance enhancing drugs yet the punishment is severe. It is assumed that the masking agent was used to hide the use of the performance enhancing drug. Otherwise why the masking agent?

    same here. The player covered his mouth in an aggressive incident. Why? The presumed victim reacted immediately and told others that he had been racially abused. Not a few hours or days later but immediately, within seconds. On the balance of probabilities the victim is telling the truth and he is given the benefit of the doubt.
     
    #31825
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  6. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Yeh but the athlete knowing this can do something about it i.e. make sure they don't take anything with a masking agent, and if it's prescribed they disclose it in advance and get it okayed.

    A player who speaks by covering his mouth cannot control what the other guy may accuse him of. I'm not saying that's going to happen but it's the principle of the thing. You shouldn't be assumed guilty without anything to back it up. Unless of course you ban covering of the mouth but that's also ridiculous imo.

    Have you ever watched T20 cricket? All the players are mic'd up and you often hear commentators talking directly to players on the pitch. It's quite common and fairly easy to do.
     
    #31826
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  7. RogerisontheHunt

    RogerisontheHunt Well-Known Member

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    The Correct answer is... Null and void the season.

    Wonder what Karen Brady thinks of that idea now seeing as she was so keen on it this time last year.
     
    #31827
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  8. sadiosalah

    sadiosalah Active Member

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    of course it’s not about covering the mouth. It’s about why? Why take separate masking agent? Why cover your mouth in an argument? If you do that when innocent, you are stupid and deserve what you get.

    To me it’s about balance of probabilities, not certainty. In a legal action against someone, the decision is made very often on the probability that the event happened. I am quite happy considering all the issues (not just the covering of the mouth, the aggression, the instant reaction of the victim) that the right decision was arrived at. We can’t wait for certainty before taking action or perpetrators get away with serious crimes.
     
    #31828
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  9. InBiscanWeTrust

    InBiscanWeTrust Rome, London, Paris, Rome, Istanbul, Madrid
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    simple answer, don’t cover your mouth, don’t say anything racist that way you won’t have any issues. Pretty straightforward.
     
    #31829
  10. moreinjuredthanowen

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    1. Yes. Suspend game. In spain we say a racist win. The victim was taken off by his team and they continued on.

    2. How do we prove it? What is proof, if a player reacts is it proof? Do we really think a lot of people will play act with this to get an opponent sent off?

    3. Miking up players is just rather pointless.

    It's as simple as this if a player covers their mouth to speak they are either saying something they dont want their own fans to hear like good game mate we hadn't a hope or something he doesn't want the authorities to hear including sledging.

    If players simply dont cover their mouth then they cant be accused
     
    #31830

  11. saintKlopp

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    And to think you used to love him...<whistle>

    Yeah, it's a dilemma - they're all horrible.
    I don't actually dislike the English clubs, per se - but my attitude to buying success is well documented on here.
     
    #31831
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  12. saintKlopp

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    All sounds a bit Orwellian to me.
     
    #31832
  13. Zanjinho

    Zanjinho Club World Champions. Boom!
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    He's a Man City fan too <doh>
     
    #31833
  14. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    No, in employment HR decisions are made on probability but in all other legal actions decisions are made based on evidence.

    I think everyone is getting far too hung up on this particular case and the covering of the mouth. And you're making a rod for your own back here.

    Look beyond this case and consider some degree of impartiality between the perceived victim and the alleged perpertrator. Consider the Cala case in Spain. No covering of the mouth and La Liga have this week concluded that Diakhaby was not racially abused by Cala. In their statement they said...

    “Following an analysis of the elements available to La Liga, it can be concluded that no evidence has been found of Juan Cala using the denounced language towards Mouctar Diakhaby,”

    “In concrete, all available television and digital archives from the game have been examined as well the audio footage from the game, the images that were broadcast and what was shared on social media.

    “In order to complete the report, a specialist company was hired to do a lip-reading analysis of the conversations and study of the players’ behaviour.”

    So who do you believe here mate? A governing body carrying out an extensive review of the evidence or a player because he stormed off the pitch?

    As things stand the system of determining innocence or guilt is massively flawed in the game. I'm open-minded enough to consider other options which provide far more accurate and secure ways of establishing that. I'm not backing suspension of games or mic'ing up players BUT they are worth exploring, because otherwise we're not really doing enough - as both cases have demonstrated with their opposing outcomes.
     
    #31834
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  15. saintKlopp

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    I'm all for it now. :)
     
    #31835
  16. Tobes

    Tobes Yer Ma
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    It’s only in criminal proceedings that ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ is the measure. In anything civil, then judgement is made on the basis of probability.
    The reaction of the player himself and his colleagues, plus the fact the guy chose to cover his mouth, was obvs enough here to hand out the minimum sentence possible, based on probability.
     
    #31836
  17. moreinjuredthanowen

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    I believe the player.

    Why?

    Spain has not changed thats why.

    I still recall their great manager calling Reyes by a derogatory term and nobody even batting an eyelid there.

    The player clearly heard something and no amount of nice words cover these things up.
     
    #31837
  18. moreinjuredthanowen

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    Imo chelsea will play city in the final.

    Chelsea have what it takes to beat city and real.

    I looked at people fawning over psg and shook my head. It's all very pretty when theres space.

    Their team lost and the two wasters looked on while the rest defended.
     
    #31838
  19. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    I think this case on its own doesn't resolve anything long term as the Cala case has shown.
     
    #31839
  20. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Ahhh so you will believe a player because he plays in a country that is known for its racism in the sport but not in other countries where it's not?

    I thought it was thierry henry btw.
     
    #31840

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