Off Topic Politics Thread

[Beef]

You seem to have taken a different understanding from the article than I have then. Strikes me that it is saying that it isn't people that are "struggling to get by" more that they are being held back because all the help has been diverted to those at the bottom (including those who won't help themselves) and are resentful that they are being ignored.

The whole aspiration being stifled argument.

After all ISIRTP did say that the poor bottom of the rung still voted Democrat. The poor bottom of the rung in this country never vote Tory. It is the just above the poor that will often vote Tory.

This is the whole crux of the article. The assumption that when we are talking about the working class it means the poor when the reality is working class includes people up to and above the median.

Those at the bottom deserve the most help. But it isn't the case in the US or the UK. People that have a pretty decent life just want more and more (it's called greed).

I don't blame them for wanting more, I do blame them for wanting more while watching the real poor suffer even more. Here in the UK we have more and more people needing food banks due to how badly the poor are treat. Yet the middle class who have a job or can feed their family enough don't give a ****.

The artical you posted has so much toxic masculinity in it that it is crazy. "I can't do what I view as a women's job". Maybe they should be happy they can do a job in the first place.

 

[ImpSaint]

Those at the bottom deserve the most help. But it isn't the case in the US or the UK. People that have a pretty decent life just want more and more (it's called greed).

I don't blame them for wanting more, I do blame them for wanting more while watching the real poor suffer even more. Here in the UK we have more and more people needing food banks due to how badly the poor are treat. Yet the middle class who have a job or can feed their family enough don't give a ****.

The artical you posted has so much toxic masculinity in it that it is crazy. "I can't do what I view as a women's job". Maybe they should be happy they can do a job in the first place.

That article is trying to look at what the problem is rather than ignoring what the problem is because they don;t agree with it.

It is a problem we have with media that instead of reporting the news they want to tell you how that news should be interpreted with the reporter's version of events complete with "between the lines" and assertions that are often not there.

If you can;t understand the problem you can;t address it. "Our" politicians can;t deal with these problems because instead of trying to understand them they just say "thats wrong, you shouldn't believe that" and never address the issue.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Working-class white people want to go back to 50 years to when white, Christian, hardworking men could make a decent living in a white, Christian culture without having to go to college. Regardless of how completely unfeasible that is, and regardless of the impact that has on other people.

I absolutely understand their problem. And I don't care.

 

[Beef]

That article is trying to look at what the problem is rather than ignoring what the problem is because they don;t agree with it.

It is a problem we have with media that instead of reporting the news they want to tell you how that news should be interpreted with the reporter's version of events complete with "between the lines" and assertions that are often not there.

If you can;t understand the problem you can;t address it. "Our" politicians can;t deal with these problems because instead of trying to understand them they just say "thats wrong, you shouldn't believe that" and never address the issue.

Some "problems" don't deserve to be understood.

 

[BobbyD]

Working-class white people want to go back to 50 years to when white, Christian, hardworking men could make a decent living in a white, Christian culture without having to go to college. Regardless of how completely unfeasible that is, and regardless of the impact that has on other people.

I absolutely understand their problem. And I don't care.

Some problems don't deserve to be understood.

Think you two are being rather harsh here. Whilst i don't think we can turn the clocks back and mine for coal like in the past or have salaries paid as they used to, these are peoples livelihoods they are worrying about. There are literally no jobs and people are having to migrate away and this includes large cities like cleveland and detroit where the population has literally lost a third of its population over the last 20 years.

It's precisely this sort of mentality that has allowed trump to come out with his rhetoric and get into power.

Not just that, it's a complete stereotype of these white working class people akin to saying all people on benefits are scroungers and can't be bothered to get a job. If they really wanted one they could move out of wales/newcastle etc and come down to london to find a job and live in a box room.

 

[Beef]

Think you two are being rather harsh here. Whilst i don't think we can turn the clocks back and mine for coal like in the past or have salaries paid as they used to, these are peoples livelihoods they are worrying about. There are literally no jobs and people are having to migrate away and this includes large cities like cleveland and detroit where the population has literally lost a third of its population over the last 20 years.

It's precisely this sort of mentality that has allowed trump to come out with his rhetoric and get into power.

Not just that, it's a complete stereotype of these white working class people akin to saying all people on benefits are scroungers and can't be bothered to get a job. If they really wanted one they could move out of wales/newcastle etc and come down to london to find a job and live in a box room.

They chose to vote for a bigot, abuser, fraud etc loving racist. They didn't give a **** about how others such as the LGBT,minorites, people of other faith would be effected as long as they thought they would be better off.

Sometimes you have to think of your fellow man, before you think of yourself.

 

[Saints_Alive]

I have this old fashioned notion that political leaders should run the country for the benefit of all its' inhabitants, not just a selective demographic.
Why should white, working class people expect to get treated better than non-whites? just because they were there first. The Native Americans were there before them but they get treated like ****. The sooner everyone gets used to the idea that the world is a multi-cultural mix the better. The genie is out of the bottle, we can't go back, so we should be looking for ways to make things work for everybody.

 

[ImpSaint]

I have this old fashioned notion that political leaders should run the country for the benefit of all its' inhabitants, not just a selective demographic.
Why should white, working class people expect to get treated better than non-whites? just because they were there first. The Native Indians were there before them but they get treated like ****. The sooner everyone gets used to the idea that the world is a multi-cultural mix the better. The genie is out of the bottle, we can't go back, so we should be looking for ways to make things work for everybody.

I agree with that.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Think you two are being rather harsh here. Whilst i don't think we can turn the clocks back and mine for coal like in the past or have salaries paid as they used to, these are peoples livelihoods they are worrying about. There are literally no jobs and people are having to migrate away and this includes large cities like cleveland and detroit where the population has literally lost a third of its population over the last 20 years.

Detroit is urban and 80% Black because of white flight. That is a huge factor in its decline. The same people who moved out of the city to get away from the Blacks are the ones voting for Trump.

I care about Detroit. They don't.

 

[Beef]

Detroit is urban and 80% Black because of white flight. That is a huge factor in its decline. The same people who moved out of the city to get away from the Blacks are the ones voting for Trump.

I care about Detroit. They don't.

Ingraham Angle looks like being Trump's Press Secretary.....

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Ingraham Angle looks like being Trump's Press Secretary.....

That's good news at this point. She can't do that much harm in a non-policy position. And she won't last six months in the job, which should hopefully be a seen as a strike against the administration. If she does, then we are just beyond saving.

We need the worst people in positions of the least power but with maximum visibility.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I think that the recent problems are indicative of the failure of the Left, no only in the UK and America, but also across Europe. The Socialist political parties have been overtaken by events and have totally lost their identity. Whilst I have some sympathy with some of the arguments especially regarding race and multi-culturalism, the problem is largely of the making of the Liberal elite insofar that they equate Leftist ideas with meaning the promotion of minority agendas. I think most people only have a marginal interest in these issues and are more concerned with economic factors. If the Left want to regain creditbility, it needs to do exactly as Corbyn stated yesterday and highlight the failure of the Reagan / Thatcher economic model. Unfortunately, most of the Labour MPs no longer come from a Working Class background and have failed to truly appreciate how people are looking to be presented in Parliament. The failure of Hilary Clinton is a prime example and such people now represent exactly the kind of Establishment that socialism was created to challenge.

I would like to see the Labour Party cease entertaining minority figures like Eddie Izzard who simply alienate most of the public and, instead, engage with the issues that concern people on a day-to-day basis. It is imperative that Corbyn discredits the likes of UKIP and can harvest what used to be their core vote. I am sure that if Labour can do this and reonsate with the people, they will get in. The cosying up of Farage to Trump will ultimately prove to be his Achilles heel and Labour need to be ready to capitilise on this. As soon as Trump's olicies fail to work, the tide will quickly turn. With a fractured and fractuous Tory Party, I think that Labour should be ahead in the polls and not languishing as they have been. The time is ripe for this party to inspire the popular mandate but first they need to rid themselves as a middle class, liberal party and start listening to what the people want. They should listen to someone like Len McClusky a lot more as he is someone is is talking sense.

 

[Archers Road]

I have enormous sympathy with the legions of people working long hours in low paid service sector jobs, often forced to take on personal debt just to pay the most basic bills. I've seen it at first hand, people slogging their guts out for a pittance because modern employers are in a race to the bottom in terms of the pay and conditions of their employees.

In many cases these companies prefer not to think of their staff as employees at all, but as a casual resource to be rinsed for maximum value with the employer accepting no responsibilty or obligation at all towards the workers off whose backs they are getting rich.

Businesses like Uber, Yodel, Deliveroo, Amazon, Sports Direct etc are a blight on the lives of working people and undercut the decent employers, dragging everyone down.

I don't find any of these things acceptable and I don't blame people for being angry. But there is no excuse for falling prey to the crass populism of racist demagogues like Farage or Trump, or Le Pen. And the idea that voting for any of these people or their simplistic populist solutions is going to improve in any way the lot of hard pressed working people is frankly absurd.

 

[ImpSaint]

I think that the recent problems are indicative of the failure of the Left, no only in the UK and America, but also across Europe. The Socialist political parties have been overtaken by events and have totally lost their identity. Whilst I have some sympathy with some of the arguments especially regarding race and multi-culturalism, the problem is largely of the making of the Liberal elite insofar that they equate Leftist ideas with meaning the promotion of minority agendas. I think most people only have a marginal interest in these issues and are more concerned with economic factors. If the Left want to regain creditbility, it needs to do exactly as Corbyn stated yesterday and highlight the failure of the Reagan / Thatcher economic model. Unfortunately, most of the Labour MPs no longer come from a Working Class background and have failed to truly appreciate how people are looking to be presented in Parliament. The failure of Hilary Clinton is a prime example and such people now represent exactly the kind of Establishment that socialism was created to challenge.

I would like to see the Labour Party cease entertaining minority figures like Eddie Izzard who simply alienate most of the public and, instead, engage with the issues that concern people on a day-to-day basis. It is imperative that Corbyn discredits the likes of UKIP and can harvest what used to be their core vote. I am sure that if Labour can do this and reonsate with the people, they will get in. The cosying up of Farage to Trump will ultimately prove to be his Achilles heel and Labour need to be ready to capitilise on this. As soon as Trump's olicies fail to work, the tide will quickly turn. With a fractured and fractuous Tory Party, I think that Labour should be ahead in the polls and not languishing as they have been. The time is ripe for this party to inspire the popular mandate but first they need to rid themselves as a middle class, liberal party and start listening to what the people want. They should listen to someone like Len McClusky a lot more as he is someone is is talking sense.

I'm sorry but are you serious? Len McClusky? You would see more votes lost than Corbyn with that suggestion and he is already pretty much puppetmaster anyway.

He threatens to withdraw funding if they don't pick the "right" leader and of his membership (according to unite's own 2013 leaked report) only 37.5% vote Labour anyway.

I have said for a long time that someone like John Mann, sat there in the middle being ignored by the Blairite/Corbyn unelectables would be a decent shout. Working class, has his ear to the ground, down to earth and understands the problem. You are right that people like Eddie Izzard are driving people away, Russell Brand's support for Ed was a blow and the list goes on and on.

You are wrong on UKIP. Farage is playing games. He (and his team) have helped Trump out and they are wanting him to return the favour. Seeing Aaron Banks, Raheem Kassam there with Farage in Trump Tower for the "over 60 minutes" says to me they are playing a different game than a little job for Nigel. More like Nigel throws the idea around and the news has a field day, the political classes go mad at the suggestion and May publicly rebukes him all the while Trump leans on May at the right time about what he would like to see come out of Brexit.

Banks and Farage have suggested that they might want to move in a different direction from where UKIP has gone. Maybe they have something else in mind.

 

[Beef]

That's good news at this point. She can't do that much harm in a non-policy position. And she won't last six months in the job, which should hopefully be a seen as a strike against the administration. If she does, then we are just beyond saving.

We need the worst people in positions of the least power but with maximum visibility.

Secretary of State contenders are John Bolton and Rudy Giuliani. Who do you prefer out of these two?

 

[ImpSaint]

Secretary of State contenders are John Bolton and Rudy Giuliani. Who do you prefer out of these two?

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Imp

McClusky made the point over the weekend that the problem isn't immigration but that employers are importing cheap labour in to communities wholesale and this is undercutting the local labour market. As you say, there is a race to the bottom with the way that some companies are run and I think that the disconnect is that the economy is being made out for the benefit of the few and not serving the population as a whole. It would be very easy to getting these working people on board and, as you concede, it is totally correct that by catering for the need to be "on message" with "marginal" characters like Izzard, the liberal parties are failing to address the problems of society as a whole.

The reason why people don't belong to Trades Unions is simple. Margaret Thatcher sought to confront the more militant unions and effectively emasculated the whole movement in one fell swoop. I have always thought that unions need to recruit all workers and that , in turn, the unions should be in the second house of parliament and not the Lords. Whilst I would concur with some opinion that some industrial action seems petty (especially to those of us who work in the private sector where people routinely work in excess of the hours of the ublic section which is the most-unionised) , if the unions looked at the broader picture and somehow organise themselves to your "race to the bottom", I think they would have the answer and could, with the help of a Labour Party that supported them for once, actually make far more sweeping and just changes than those promised by snake-oil merchants such as Farago. People are crying out for proper representation in parliament and the void is so easy to fill that it is so frustrating to see the political parties floundering. Every "Ed Stone" or Harriet Harman's ridiculous pink bus is a nail in the coffin of a credible , "liberalist" political party.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Secretary of State contenders are John Bolton and Rudy Giuliani. Who do you prefer out of these two?

Giuliani. Guiliani is an awful, awful person but his political views aren't so terrible. Mainly just looks to see which way the wind is blowing and looks out for #1. Would expect him to more or less follow the GOP agenda.

Bolton is a paranoid, creepy, dangerous ****.

 

[ImpSaint]

Imp

McClusky made the point over the weekend that the problem isn't immigration but that employers are importing cheap labour in to communities wholesale and this is undercutting the local labour market. As you say, there is a race to the bottom with the way that some companies are run and I think that the disconnect is that the economy is being made out for the benefit of the few and not serving the population as a whole. It would be very easy to getting these working people on board and, as you concede, it is totally correct that by catering for the need to be "on message" with "marginal" characters like Izzard, the liberal parties are failing to address the problems of society as a whole.

The reason why people don't belong to Trades Unions is simple. Margaret Thatcher sought to confront the more militant unions and effectively emasculated the whole movement in one fell swoop. I have always thought that unions need to recruit all workers and that , in turn, the unions should be in the second house of parliament and not the Lords. Whilst I would concur with some opinion that some industrial action seems petty (especially to those of us who work in the private sector where people routinely work in excess of the hours of the ublic section which is the most-unionised) , if the unions looked at the broader picture and somehow organise themselves to your "race to the bottom", I think they would have the answer and could, with the help of a Labour Party that supported them for once, actually make far more sweeping and just changes than those promised by snake-oil merchants such as Farago. People are crying out for proper representation in parliament and the void is so easy to fill that it is so frustrating to see the political parties floundering. Every "Ed Stone" or Harriet Harman's ridiculous pink bus is a nail in the coffin of a credible , "liberalist" political party.

I agree r.e. Farage. He isn't my guy but he is running rings round the politicians at the moment.

Len McClusky is already head puppeteer at Labour and the public know it. People got tired of the unions and most people that are in unions are in the public sector and paid for by the state. Why are people going to vote for McClusky when they wouldn't vote for his choice Milliband and most definitely not going to vote for his much preferred choice Corbyn?

Yes he is making the right sounds but then they have been quiet about this through the last 12 years and only recently Ed hinted at saying "yes it's true" and Corbyn hasn't added much to it. McClusky's other problem (as with Corbyn) is they want out of Europe but want the blame to go to the Tories so they don't offend their liberal voters. Good job because all they have left are those liberal voters.

I don't trust McDonnell, Watson or McClusky who to me are far much closer to going a communist or fascist route than anyone else. There are far too may links between unite, momentum, UAF, SWP and lots of other protest groups that all share each other's board members and charge into town with their jack boots and knuckle dusters on if anyone dare not confess allegiance to the leftist agenda.

Labour need someone in the middle like Frank Field or John Mann not a militant union leader who funds very dangerous left wing troublemakers.

 

[ImpSaint]

Giuliani. Guiliani is an awful, awful person but his political views aren't so terrible. Mainly just looks to see which way the wind is blowing and looks out for #1. Would expect him to more or less follow the GOP agenda.

Bolton is a paranoid, creepy, dangerous ****.

I thought Giuliani was lined up for Attorney General?