Off Topic Politics Thread

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Shandy_top_89 said:
Its funny that all of this stuff is so heavily controversial at the moment, because while i'm not sure we will ever rejoin the EU (although I dont think that is outright impossible either), I see rejoining the single market and customs union as basically a forgone conclusion in the long run, it is largely the elderly who are politically against it and drive the desire to keep out (I know not everyone over 70 is Tory/Reform and anti Europe, but they constitute the vast majority of that vote) and economically it is probably the easiest win for a future government there is, the instant that it stops being detrimental electorally it will happen.
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The irony is that rejoining the Customs Union and Single Market sounds like something we can just sign a deal to do. The reality is that we would have to accept most of the EU laws on trading standards, plus (don’t tell anyone) Freedom of Movement, without having any voting rights or power of veto over those laws. So it’s a huge step, and if you’re going to do that, you may as well go all-in.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
The irony is that rejoining the Customs Union and Single Market sounds like something we can just sign a deal to do. The reality is that we would have to accept most of the EU laws on trading standards, plus (don’t tell anyone) Freedom of Movement, without having any voting rights or power of veto over those laws. So it’s a huge step, and if you’re going to do that, you may as well go all-in.
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Oh I agree, but I lack confidence that our electorate is intelligent enough to merge the concepts.

You add 'EU' and it will instantly become less popular, despite the fact you are far better in it if you are in the single market and customs union.

Fact of the matter is that Brexit has been such an outright disaster that we would be better off being in the SM and CU as rule takers than as we are at the moment. Long term the Brexiteers will have given away more control than they have taken back.

To get back into the EU as a full member we also have to rely on the good graces of the EU to let us back in, they are probably a lot more willing to let us back in the single market and customs union before that.
 
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Gregm1988 said:
I’m confused - you seem to be saying that it wasn’t about immigration but it was about trading rules which ultimately bring more immigration. So it was about immigration. I can guarantee you - it is about immigration

In some fantasy world where we could get trade deal and maybe even grants that would revitalise the country and immigration also fell then reform’s support would fall away. They’d still be some there who are unhappy with the immigrants already here. But if these dying seaside towns and struggling northern and midlands areas were suddenly booming and people weren’t struggling with cost of living and felt they could get a decent job and buy a house would as many really still vote for reform?

It’s like you say - immigration is a level pulled to appeal to those struggling as they believe their jobs have been taken and that demand for housing and services have kept these services unaffordable/hard to get. And they probably aren’t totally wrong. Although it isn’t the only reason. Moves need to be made to solve these issues. If they are then suddenly the main concern people have becomes about paying less tax and they don’t really care about culture issues as much
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I said it was about tax-avoidance laws which the super-rich backers of Brexit wanted to get away from. The same forces may be using the nationalist movements in the EU to stir up anti-EU sentiments. Immigration is the spectre they actually use, but it isn’t the reason. The reason, as always, is money.
 
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Gregm1988 said:
I said nothing about joining the customs union and single market. That would be too big a step right now due the freedom of movement point you mentioned.

I spoke of “greater alignment”. Now maybe this is nonsense and it is customs union or nothing.
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See my other reply about this. Greater alignment essentially means you may as well rejoin completely.
 
StJabbo1 said:
So you did, I spoke of closer ties leading to joining the customs union and single market something I'm sure would give much needed benefits to the UK. Farage's teeth another issue.
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The issue would be anything that riles him up that much could easily drive the reform vote up. Because I’m not sure there would be enough time to see benefit. But there will be time for negative reporting on this to dominate
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
I said it was about tax-avoidance laws which the super-rich backers of Brexit wanted to get away from. The same forces may be using the nationalist movements in the EU to stir up anti-EU sentiments. Immigration is the spectre they actually use, but it isn’t the reason. The reason, as always, is money.
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Oh blimey i completely misread the original post. I’ve messed up my body clock staying up for the election and haven’t righted it yet. Yeah you are right “this Singapore on the Thames” is what many who drove this wanted. Backed by the support of people who won’t benefit from this at all and will actually be worse off
 
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i can't find an updated version but still worth a repost.
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Day Mail says Boris has a 10 point plan (I’m surprised he had the patience to get to 10!)

Any Mail readers out there who want to tell us more?

I don’t want to subscribe, even for a free month :eek:
 
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Lib Dems win final seat

Final totals

Lab 411
Con 121
Lib Dem 72
SNP 9
Sinn Fein 7
Reform 5
DUP 5
Greens (E&W) 4
Plaid Cymru 4
SDLP 2
Alliance 1
UUP 1
TUV 1
Speaker 1
Independents 6
 
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Starmer has a massive job to do with regards to the economy and immigration but one of his biggest jobs is to find a way of discrediting Farage in a way that actually resonates with the people who support him.
Reducing immigration in a big way would go a long way towards helping take the wind out of Farage’s sails, as would reminding people that the reason for the UK having so many legal, non Caucasian migrants is because of the need to fill jobs that were previously filled by Caucasian immigrants from the EU.
Likewise it needs to be repeatedly shown that Farage is on tape saying that he thinks the NHS should be replaced by a health insurance system.
People NEED to be made aware of how dangerous he is, and with the recent poll showing that 35% of 16/17 year olds would have voted Reform, the sooner Labour comes up with a strategy to expose his true colours the better.
And whilst they are doing that they also need to remind people of the damage the Tories ALWAYS do to the NHS to prevent voters backsliding towards them again.


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It is important we are able to have civil debates on immigration, but often it gets treated as the number 1 most important thing with various topics surrounding it.

In reality I think Starmer's success or failure will mostly depend on one thing, how well off people feel and I am surprised how little people talk about that.
 
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San Tejón said:
Starmer has a massive job to do with regards to the economy and immigration but one of his biggest jobs is to find a way of discrediting Farage in a way that actually resonates with the people who support him.
Reducing immigration in a big way would go a long way towards helping take the wind out of Farage’s sails, as would reminding people that the reason for the UK having so many legal, non Caucasian migrants is because of the need to fill jobs that were previously filled by Caucasian immigrants from the EU.
Likewise it needs to be repeatedly shown that Farage is on tape saying that he thinks the NHS should be replaced by a health insurance system.
People NEED to be made aware of how dangerous he is, and with the recent poll showing that 35% of 16/17 year olds would have voted Reform, the sooner Labour comes up with a strategy to expose his true colours the better.
And whilst they are doing that they also need to remind people of the damage the Tories ALWAYS do to the NHS to prevent voters backsliding towards them again.


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The way to neutralise Reform, is to make real, significant improvements to people’s lives.

Of course there’ll always be some people who are taken in by divisive rhetoric, and the delusion that complex problems have simple solutions. But the less pressure people feel under due to the circumstances of their lives, the less susceptible they are to conmen like Farage (and Boris Johnson).
 
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