Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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I’ll be honest, Mr Optimism suddenly being pessimistic about the government he himself voted for - because of some bs he has been told about Labour not being trustworthy- wound me up.Building bridges?
Finally. Can't help but feel a sense of relief that it's all over. Staggered on for about a year longer that it really needed to, but at least now we should be free of the bombastic nonsense, coupled with amateur theatrics and rank ineptitude. But that's enough about Lyanco...
There's a breath of fresh air felt across the North Sea and hope for closer ties with the EU leading to joining the customs union and single market.
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There have been some interesting comments on this thread that I hae enjoyed readig. These are my opinions of the election result:-
1. I agree that some Tories including Sunak accepted thier fate with good grace. However, Liz Truss handled the result extemely poorly and it is good that she has been marginalised and hopefully will have little bearing ont eh plitical scene in the future. I feel the same about Rees Mogg.
2. Everyone was fed up with the Tories yet I sense that the whitewash result is not necessarily an endorsement of Keir Starmer who still had less numbers vote for his Labour Party as was the case when Jeremy was leader.
3. I am chuffed that Jeremey got re-eclected. He is the epitome of what a good MP should be. Shame he is not the Prime Minister.
4. As an Englishman, I was disappointed that the SNP lost so many seats. I think that this political party has been a significant player in promoting progressive values. They were effectively the principle opposition to Boris when Blackfor was in Westminster. It is a massive shame they did not retain their seats as it would have had no effect on the overall result and would have acted as a barometer to ensure that Starmer did not lurch too far to the centre. This is not a great result for democracy.
5. I am surprised people have voted for the Liberals as they seem to appeal to the immature. I do not think Labour did enough to present the case that , under Clegg, they sided with the Tories. They shouldnever be forgiven for this. In adition, I think Ed Davey is an idiot.
6. The Greens got as many seats as Reform yet did not receive a fraction of the coverage either during the campaign or after the result. I think they should have won more seats.
7. The fate of the Consersative Party. The loss of Penny Mordant is hugely crucial in my opinion. I felt that she was the best chance of restoring their fortunes if she became leader. I cannot see any other appointment having a positive effect in the long term. I hate to say it, but I agree with Farage in this respect. I think that Farage is right in stating that this is the end for the Conservatives. It will be interesting to see how a new leader performs as I can see some Conservative MPs defecting to Reform. With two parties on the Right competing to see who can be the most extreme, they both will alienate voters. I do not feel immigration will be an issue in future elections.The result yesterday is suggestive that the people what safe, centralist governments.
8. The treatment of Jess Phillips - I quite like this MP and find her engaging as a personality. However, she has a track record of hostility towards the Muslim community and was a vociferous critic of the parents who demonstrated for the removal of a school teacher who drew an image of the Prophet. She should have been brought in line back then. Although i think George Galloway is a publicity seaking moron, I do feel that the booing of Phillips was totally appropriate given the stance she has previously taken and Labour's overall position on Palestine. Starmer is rightly percevied as being hotile to the Muslim community yet has never been calle out for this. Say no to racism and Islamiphobia.
9. Starmer needs to act quickly to against Reform. It is a shame that he has been more robost against the more left wing members of his party and especially those who are Muslim. However, I see Reform as a major threat to democracy and they threaten to do in the UK what the NF have done in France. As a starter, GB News needs to be closed down. Farage and his ilk need to be challenged at every opportunity. I just feel that Starmer needs to be forensic in his criticism of Reform. The performance of the Reform MOs must be scrutinised and any short-falls brought to the attention of the constituents. I can see Reform ultimately being more important than than the Conservatives so this is something those on the Left must consider to be a priority.
1. I agree that some Tories including Sunak accepted thier fate with good grace. However, Liz Truss handled the result extemely poorly and it is good that she has been marginalised and hopefully will have little bearing ont eh plitical scene in the future. I feel the same about Rees Mogg.
2. Everyone was fed up with the Tories yet I sense that the whitewash result is not necessarily an endorsement of Keir Starmer who still had less numbers vote for his Labour Party as was the case when Jeremy was leader.
3. I am chuffed that Jeremey got re-eclected. He is the epitome of what a good MP should be. Shame he is not the Prime Minister.
4. As an Englishman, I was disappointed that the SNP lost so many seats. I think that this political party has been a significant player in promoting progressive values. They were effectively the principle opposition to Boris when Blackfor was in Westminster. It is a massive shame they did not retain their seats as it would have had no effect on the overall result and would have acted as a barometer to ensure that Starmer did not lurch too far to the centre. This is not a great result for democracy.
5. I am surprised people have voted for the Liberals as they seem to appeal to the immature. I do not think Labour did enough to present the case that , under Clegg, they sided with the Tories. They shouldnever be forgiven for this. In adition, I think Ed Davey is an idiot.
6. The Greens got as many seats as Reform yet did not receive a fraction of the coverage either during the campaign or after the result. I think they should have won more seats.
7. The fate of the Consersative Party. The loss of Penny Mordant is hugely crucial in my opinion. I felt that she was the best chance of restoring their fortunes if she became leader. I cannot see any other appointment having a positive effect in the long term. I hate to say it, but I agree with Farage in this respect. I think that Farage is right in stating that this is the end for the Conservatives. It will be interesting to see how a new leader performs as I can see some Conservative MPs defecting to Reform. With two parties on the Right competing to see who can be the most extreme, they both will alienate voters. I do not feel immigration will be an issue in future elections.The result yesterday is suggestive that the people what safe, centralist governments.
8. The treatment of Jess Phillips - I quite like this MP and find her engaging as a personality. However, she has a track record of hostility towards the Muslim community and was a vociferous critic of the parents who demonstrated for the removal of a school teacher who drew an image of the Prophet. She should have been brought in line back then. Although i think George Galloway is a publicity seaking moron, I do feel that the booing of Phillips was totally appropriate given the stance she has previously taken and Labour's overall position on Palestine. Starmer is rightly percevied as being hotile to the Muslim community yet has never been calle out for this. Say no to racism and Islamiphobia.
9. Starmer needs to act quickly to against Reform. It is a shame that he has been more robost against the more left wing members of his party and especially those who are Muslim. However, I see Reform as a major threat to democracy and they threaten to do in the UK what the NF have done in France. As a starter, GB News needs to be closed down. Farage and his ilk need to be challenged at every opportunity. I just feel that Starmer needs to be forensic in his criticism of Reform. The performance of the Reform MOs must be scrutinised and any short-falls brought to the attention of the constituents. I can see Reform ultimately being more important than than the Conservatives so this is something those on the Left must consider to be a priority.
It will be interesting to see how centrist Starmer is now he has power. If you look at his track record up until he became head of the labour party, he was a lot further left than the man we see today.
The fact there are very few spending or taxation promises within the labour manifesto makes me wonder if he kept the further left policies quiet (to avoid the smears we saw with Corbyn) during the election but will govern with a more left of centre approach than many anticipate (at least in terms of taxation and spending).
Some good news from the Middle East …
Reformist candidate Masoud Pezeshkian has won Iran’s runoff presidential election, beating hardliner Saeed Jalili by promising to reach out to the west and ease enforcement on the country’s mandatory headscarf law after years of sanctions and protests squeezing the Islamic Republic
Reformist candidate Masoud Pezeshkian has won Iran’s runoff presidential election, beating hardliner Saeed Jalili by promising to reach out to the west and ease enforcement on the country’s mandatory headscarf law after years of sanctions and protests squeezing the Islamic Republic
The narrative seems to be that Starmer would never try it because of Farage. But is Farage actually campaigning against closer economic ties? Surely not. Other than try to scare people into believing it’s an attempt to rejoin the EU. But Brexit was what the reform vote was about. It was about immigration and cost of living. If something can be done about those then the economic ties with the EU shouldn’t be a factor in theory
You mean she was critical of the Muslim community for kicking off about a bloody picture from a magazine where Muslims have already murdered a large chunk of the staff? You mean she was critical of a community that forced a teacher and his family to leave his home, change his name and never come back?
The Muslim community needs to remember this is a secular state and they have Zero right to threaten anyone. They can be as offended as they like but they need to pipe down.
Re 9 This isn’t a straightforward Islamic/Islamophobic issue …
Jess Phillips quit the Labour front-bench to vote for a Gaza cease fire
She and Shabana Mahmood relayed in sober victory speeches the intimidation and harassment they faced during the general election campaign
Shabana Mahmood used her speech to relay how she, her family and supporters had been harassed during the election campaign, adding that some people had sought to "deny" her Muslim faith
Baroness Shaista Gohir, who leads the national charity Muslim Women's Network UK, told BBC Radio WM: “I’ve been really concerned observing what has been happening to the female candidates in areas where you have a significant Muslim electorate
Joining the customs union and single market would mean freedom of movement which would have Farage spitting teeth, a joy to behold
Immigration was certainly what the pro-Brexit camp always told us it was all about, but it really wasn’t. Brexit was always about getting away from the EU’s tax-avoidance laws, which is possibly why so many EU countries have nationalist parties on the rise using immigration as a lever to appeal to the ignorant.
What happens when you leave a bloc with freedom of movement between nations is that you have to do trade deals with non-EU countries, and this inevitably leads an increase in immigration from those countries, as has been the case in Britain.
Stop being rational and sensible with your theories Chilcs!
I’m tempted to have a listen to some of the stuff on the wacky right wing channels (like lotus eaters of Liz truss and Jess Phillips fame from this election cycle) or the channels that used to try and pretend to be “centrist” but now fully cater to people who support Trump if they are American or Reform if they are from the U.K.
The latter of these two has an interview with Peter Hitchens were apparently he says Labour will be the worst thing for the country but also criticises Reform
They both have scare mongering tactics and episodes about how bad Starmer and Labour will be for the country. So that might be interesting. It might be a bunch of great things they are terrified he might do pitched negatively but once listened to by someone more left leaning would actually be heard as “oh you are threatening me with a good time”
Or it might be “babble babble WEF, babble babble Blair, babble babble George Soros”
Certainly could be a different insight than the ravings of Owen Jones and his left wing cry bullies who mind blowingly consider being pro-Gaza to be the acid test of the left wing these days. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with left vs right and shows a lot of them are trying to hijack this sort of thing with all sorts of other “progressive”’ ideas. And are so dogmatic that they don’t realise they are throwing their lot in with some of the least progressive people possible. I oppose the right wing Lotus eaters and that sort on many things but when they point out the absurdity of things like pride marches being filled with pro-Palestine stuff - they really aren’t wrong. You can absolutely hold both positions and be left wing and progressive - but you need to acknowledge that one group here ultimately does not love and support you no matter how much support they are offered. If Palestine was suddenly recognised and the Israelis all thrown out they will not exactly have Pride marches to celebrate those who “helped”. And those who tried would be in for a nasty shock
The “far left” (for want of a better term) seem even more clueless and deranged about what happened in this election than the “far right” (again for want of a better term - and for something short). Although that said apparently there were a fair chunk of those online who supported Reform who genuinely thought they’d wake up to Farage being elected prime minister. But then there are those on the other side (all sides actually) trying to paint a massive majority and 410 seats as a bad thing
Put it this way - if the results were the same but reversed with perhaps a massive green and independent surge wiping Labour down to 110 and reform only standing in a handful of seats allowing them to increase their seats to 410 even with just 34% of the vote then I think almost all media of all sides would be reporting this rather differently. They’d be crowing about a dominant win from right leaning media, reform would be saying it was all due to them standing down (because they said that in 2019) and therefore taking the credit and the left would be bawling there eyes out about what a government could do with such a dominant majority. The vote percentage would be largely ignored. It’s rather tiring
I’m confused - you seem to be saying that it wasn’t about immigration but it was about trading rules which ultimately bring more immigration. So it was about immigration. I can guarantee you - it is about immigration
In some fantasy world where we could get trade deal and maybe even grants that would revitalise the country and immigration also fell then reform’s support would fall away. They’d still be some there who are unhappy with the immigrants already here. But if these dying seaside towns and struggling northern and midlands areas were suddenly booming and people weren’t struggling with cost of living and felt they could get a decent job and buy a house would as many really still vote for reform?
It’s like you say - immigration is a level pulled to appeal to those struggling as they believe their jobs have been taken and that demand for housing and services have kept these services unaffordable/hard to get. And they probably aren’t totally wrong. Although it isn’t the only reason. Moves need to be made to solve these issues. If they are then suddenly the main concern people have becomes about paying less tax and they don’t really care about culture issues as much
I said nothing about joining the customs union and single market. That would be too big a step right now due the freedom of movement point you mentioned.
I spoke of “greater alignment”. Now maybe this is nonsense and it is customs union or nothing.
I think it's true to say that each one of the deals that have taken years to negotiate, with many not getting out of the starting blocks e.g. USA, are worse than those we worked with under the EU. "This isn't the brexit I voted for" is heard across all sectors. People wanted all of the benefits with none of the responsibilities.
Its funny that all of this stuff is still so heavily controversial at the moment, because while i'm not sure we will ever rejoin the EU (although I dont think that is outright impossible either), I see rejoining the single market and customs union as basically a forgone conclusion in the long run, it is largely the elderly who are politically against it and drive the desire to keep out (I know not everyone over 70 is Tory/Reform and anti Europe, but they constitute the vast majority of that vote) and economically it is probably the easiest win for a future government there is, the instant that it stops being detrimental electorally it will happen.
Frankly if I was in Labour i'd be looking at the very low winning percentage of the vote and thinking 'would we actually lose any more over this?', but Starmer is more cautious than that I think.
Frankly if I was in Labour i'd be looking at the very low winning percentage of the vote and thinking 'would we actually lose any more over this?', but Starmer is more cautious than that I think.
So you did, I spoke of closer ties leading to joining the customs union and single market something I'm sure would give much needed benefits to the UK. Farage's teeth another issue.