Off Topic Politics Thread

[shoot_spiderman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-restaurant-that-wont-give-in-to-fear-kanaan

 

[Saintjoey]

Are we trying to achieve some kind of sensible consensus?

I think the key argument is now whether there should be a cease fire or not. I actually think not. Why have all these people died if Israel don't get the job done now? The have to destroy the whole terror infrastructure (fill in all the tunnels, etc.) and then they need to work really hard to take the high ground (morally) for the next decade.

Temporary Ceasefire if it includes the release of all civilian hostages. The problem is, strategically, how does that happen? Do the IDF just sit there in Gaza city like sitting ducks, preying that a terrorist group comply? They can’t feasibly withdraw. So what does that ceasefire look like?

Hence why just blindly calling for one is reductive. The focus should be on finding one that works.

 

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I don't agree with all this left / right nonsense by the way.

1. Most people don't know what it means.
2. Most of us are different sides on different topics.
3. We aren't very good at accurately categorising ourselves.

1. The easiest defining difference between left and right is the left are about collective wellbeing brought about through social endeavour and the right are about individual success which should bring about more collective wellbeing and help fund social endeavour.

But that is hard to apply to every political situation. Rugged individualism of the right would seem to fit more with identity politics as it suggests the feelings of the one are as valid as the feelings of the many. Yet it is the opposite.

2. I am way left on taxation and social projects, but probably lean a little right on immigration and foreign policy. I don't even know where I am on identity politics!

3. To categorise myself left or right I would need to create a really detailed chart. It is really dangerous to stick your flag to a left / right mast. You may find yourself agreeing with things you dislike or lumped in with ideologies that are toxic. I would never listen to a "left" or "right" podcast. I can dip in and out of things in the middle and make my own mind up.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Are we trying to achieve some kind of sensible consensus?

I think the key argument is now whether there should be a cease fire or not. I actually think not. Why have all these people died if Israel don't get the job done now? The have to destroy the whole terror infrastructure (fill in all the tunnels, etc.) and then they need to work really hard to take the high ground (morally) for the next decade.

‘Getting the job done now’ as it stands will involve the continued suffering and many more deaths of Palestinian civilians

How can they then claim any moral high ground?

This will add to the radicalisation of more Arabs and further escalation of the problems

The moral high ground needs to be occupied now, not following the commitment of more war crimes

A Humanitarian Pause is required to relieve civilian suffering and to attempt to move forward diplomatically

Hugely complicated but a cease fire is currently unachievable

 

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‘Getting the job done now’ as it stands will involve the continued suffering and many more deaths of Palestinian civilians

How can they then claim any moral high ground?

This will add to the radicalisation of more Arabs and further escalation of the problems

The moral high ground needs to be occupied now, not following the commitment of more war crimes

A Humanitarian Pause is required to relieve civilian suffering and to attempt to move forward diplomatically

Hugely complicated but a cease fire is currently unachievable

Look, I agree 100% in principal. However, the radicalisation has already happened. Anybody who sees the slaughter of Israeli children (deliberate and premeditated) and then becomes more anti-Israel when they retaliate was already lost. The people dying now have been set up to die by Hamas. It is the gameplan. If Israel stops short of making it logistically impossible for this to be repeated, it just will be.

Iran want all this bloodshed and Iran have one huge advantage. They aren't there. They don't care. They are not impacted. Therefore it doesn't matter which hearts and minds Israel win right now. They are simply screwed.

On the other hand, they need to become overly nice and friendly after. They need to stop the brutal policing and horrendous behaviour of their own troops. They need to stop pushing into areas they shouldn't be in.

This is two religious states butting heads. Basically theocracies based on divisive ideologies. Religion and race and state have no business being in bed together.

 

[SR get out of my club]

I don't agree with all this left / right nonsense by the way.

1. Most people don't know what it means.
2. Most of us are different sides on different topics.
3. We aren't very good at accurately categorising ourselves.

1. The easiest defining difference between left and right is the left are about collective wellbeing brought about through social endeavour and the right are about individual success which should bring about more collective wellbeing and help fund social endeavour.

But that is hard to apply to every political situation. Rugged individualism of the right would seem to fit more with identity politics as it suggests the feelings of the one are as valid as the feelings of the many. Yet it is the opposite.

2. I am way left on taxation and social projects, but probably lean a little right on immigration and foreign policy. I don't even know where I am on identity politics!

3. To categorise myself left or right I would need to create a really detailed chart. It is really dangerous to stick your mast to left / right mast. You may find yourself agreeing with things you dislike or lumped in with ideologies that are toxic. I would never listen to a "left" or "right" podcast. I can dip in and out of things in the middle and make my own mind up.

Great points, hadn’t looked at it that way, and I guess some of us do go both ways, as it were.

The original reason I started reading this forum was to become more educated, as I haven’t ever really dipped my toe into politics.

I (clearly) don’t understand enough about it, and thought there would be nuanced debate.

Instead I found the opposite, and to some like me, it appears a somewhat aggressive echo chamber from quite a few posters (not including you in that btw).

I actually find it hard to get reliable information.

 

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Great points, hadn’t looked at it that way, and I guess some of us do go both ways, as it were.

The original reason I started reading this forum was to become more educated, as I haven’t ever really dipped my toe into politics.

I (clearly) don’t understand enough about it, and thought there would be nuanced debate.

Instead I found the opposite, and to some like me, it appears a somewhat aggressive echo chamber from quite a few posters (not including you in that btw).

I actually find it hard to get reliable information.

I mean, I am trying to engage with you. I agree with you more often that you think - but you always say things in such an angry way it is hard to jump in.

Politics is a tetchy subject. We all think we are right and we are all wrong a lot of the time. Ideologies and life often walk separate paths.

 

[StJabbo1]

Thank you for your denunciation of antisemitism.

Eh? A Magen David is the Hebrew translation for Star of David. Which is why I said the words Magen David in my post. What on earth does the Red Cross have to do with that?! You’re legitimately insane.

I thought you were referring to this: The Magen David Adom is Israel's national emergency medical, disaster, ambulance and blood bank service. The name means "Red Shield" or "Red Star of David". Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Re the insult are you Os in disguise? Your posts have a similarity to his. Did you read the Reuters article re Hamas funding? How about the shooting down by the American of missile sand drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen. Don't you regard that as help?

Our friends in Tel Aviv are active supporters of ACRI and B'Tselem and have had threat of violence and damage to property from ultra zionists as have friends in Amsterdam and elsewhere. I'm sure you deplore such acts of intimidation.

 

[SR get out of my club]

I mean, I am trying to engage with you. I agree with you more often that you think - but you always say things in such an angry way it is hard to jump in.

Politics is a tetchy subject. We all think we are right and we are all wrong a lot of the time. Ideologies and life often walk separate paths.

Yes you are engaging me now, and I appreciate that.

I think from very early on in this Thread, I felt slightly rounded on, and that put me on the back foot, that is likely why I come across as angry. I mean, I’m not sure I sound angry on other threads on this forum, so think I’m being defensive, so thanks for pointing that out, hopefully I can come across as less confrontational.

That said, I estimate >50% of my posts on here are kinda piss taking, and some people get pretty angst about it. When in reality I’m just kidding. I get people don’t see it that way.

As for being right etc, I have no idea if I am right on stuff, sometimes I have an opinion or think I think a certain way, and as said, I don’t think there are such nuanced views.

There have been times where there were some great discussions and things, I think I pointed out some lately where I said I felt I learned stuff I didn’t know.

 

[StJabbo1]

I mean, I am trying to engage with you. I agree with you more often that you think - but you always say things in such an angry way it is hard to jump in.

Politics is a tetchy subject. We all think we are right and we are all wrong a lot of the time. Ideologies and life often walk separate paths.

I'm right, you're right but my right is righter than your right, right?

 

[Saintjoey]

I thought you were referring to this: The Magen David Adom is Israel's national emergency medical, disaster, ambulance and blood bank service. The name means "Red Shield" or "Red Star of David". Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Re the insult are you Os in disguise? Your posts have a similarity to his. Did you read the Reuters article re Hamas funding? How about the shooting down by the American of missile sand drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen. Don't you regard that as help?

Our friends in Tel Aviv are active supporters of ACRI and B'Tselem and have had threat of violence and damage to property from ultra zionists as have friends in Amsterdam and elsewhere. I'm sure you deplore such acts of intimidation.

I absolutely do. I’ve written elsewhere that I cannot understand the motivations of the Ultra Zionists. I vaguely believe they believe the messiah hasn’t yet come so the land of Israel shouldn’t be lived in until it does. They’re lunatics who need to be dealt with accordingly. You won’t find me defending them.

I can assure you I am open to both sides of the debate and I implore everybody else to be as well.

I’m not meaning to exchange personal jibes. It’s a deeply troubling situation and I know people who have had their granddaughter kidnapped (she’s 3) so, of course, we all come at this from our own angles, agendas, belief systems and passions.

 

[Archers Road]

Well, I was mentioning it as I dont read every single post, and have a couple on ignore that post bombardments of blurb against the incumbent Government, without much actual debate or engagement.

I mentioned it in the event it hadnt been mentioned, to create a debate. I think many lefties on here think than when someone who isnt particularly left mentions something like this, it is a loaded Q, when to my mind, this is a Politics forum, for debating, let's guess - Politics.

I hope this doesnt undermine Labour going into another GE, with turbulent affairs that play into the Tories hands, that snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and wouldnt want to see the Tories back in power after the ****show that has been witnessed.

I'm not sure it is the right thing for them to do, I think there needs to be solidarity and unity, which plays into the Tories hands, which has undone the Labour party before.

What do you think of it Archers? Do you feel it could undermine their GE success??

It’s not helpful, put it that way. Just when Labour was showing a united face to the electorate, a handful of individuals break ranks over a divisive issue. For the record, I don’t think Keir a Starmer helped matters when he seemed to say Israel have the right to withhold fuel and water from the civilian population of Gaza; that comment put him on the back foot with some in his party.

I’m a pacifist btw, as well as a Labour Party member. So I am in favour, like some of those councillors, of an immediate ceasefire; but probably for different reasons. I don’t side with either Palestine or Israel on any issue, I’m on the side of peace. But the Labour leadership has chosen to follow the consensus of the international community in calling for a temporary cessation of hostilities rather than a ceasefire, and I can see why they’ve done that.

Too many big egos in politics btw., who are happy to undermine both their party and their country for the sake of making a stand in public; a stand which will affect nothing but their own status anyway.

 

[SR get out of my club]

It’s not helpful, put it that way. Just when Labour was showing a united face to the electorate, a handful of individuals break ranks over a divisive issue. For the record, I don’t think Keir a Starmer helped matters when he seemed to say Israel have the right to withhold fuel and water from the civilian population of Gaza; that comment put him on the back foot with some in his party.

I’m a pacifist btw, as well as a Labour Party member. So I am in favour, like some of those councillors, of an immediate ceasefire; but probably for different reasons. I don’t side with either Palestine or Israel on any issue, I’m on the side of peace. But the Labour leadership has chosen to follow the consensus of the international community in calling for a temporary cessation of hostilities rather than a ceasefire, and I can see why they’ve done that.

Too many big egos in politics btw., who are happy to undermine both their party and their country for the sake of making a stand in public; a stand which will affect nothing but their own status anyway.

Thanks for the response.

I am also a pacifist and don’t think Starmer helped matters.

I don’t think it will stop them getting into power, and after most of the last 13 years or so of the Tories, I think it is right for them to be replaced.

Still, said it before, I don’t trust Starmer in a similar way to why I didn’t like Johnson, and think they will be go down in history as crap PMs. Happy and hope to be proved wrong, and is likely irrational saying that, as it is only based on instinct, which I had the same instinct about BJ, who was almost a comical/satire role of being PM.

 

[Saintjoey]

I agree right/left debates aren’t helpful so apologise for my part in stooping that low!

What I do believe is that Starmer deserves credit for sticking to his principles and for trying to coherently explain them. The LBC interview was a mistake which was clarified and has been continuously used as a stick to beat him with.

The several labour MPs who immediately shared outrage at Israel bombing the hospital which was proven to have been fired by Hamas is unacceptable in my view. Firstly, because they spread disinformation in their constitutional role. How is that legal? How is that a viable representation of their constituency? They also contributed to talks in the region breaking down at a crucial time.

Secondly, because the posts are still there with no apology or caveat. I think actions like that are a huge alarm bell to Jews as to what would happen if/when the grassroots seek to oust Starmer once he’s got them into power.

 

[......loading......]

I agree right/left debates aren’t helpful so apologise for my part in stooping that low!

What I do believe is that Starmer deserves credit for sticking to his principles and for trying to coherently explain them. The LBC interview was a mistake which was clarified and has been continuously used as a stick to beat him with.

The several labour MPs who immediately shared outrage at Israel bombing the hospital which was proven to have been fired by Hamas is unacceptable in my view. Firstly, because they spread disinformation in their constitutional role. How is that legal? How is that a viable representation of their constituency? They also contributed to talks in the region breaking down at a crucial time.

Secondly, because the posts are still there with no apology or caveat. I think actions like that are a huge alarm bell to Jews as to what would happen if/when the grassroots seek to oust Starmer once he’s got them into power.

I agree those politicians were wrong. It appears the hospital wasn't hit (it was the carpark) and the number of deaths were massively inflated. But I don't believe a few low level MPs have the ability to contribute to "talks in the region breaking down"!

 

[Archers Road]

Thanks for the response.

I am also a pacifist and don’t think Starmer helped matters.

I don’t think it will stop them getting into power, and after most of the last 13 years or so of the Tories, I think it is right for them to be replaced.

Still, said it before, I don’t trust Starmer in a similar way to why I didn’t like Johnson, and think they will be go down in history as crap PMs. Happy and hope to be proved wrong, and is likely irrational saying that, as it is only based on instinct, which I had the same instinct about BJ, who was almost a comical/satire role of being PM.

Agree with quite a lot of this (see, we can do that).

I have a much better feeling about Keir Starmer than I ever did about Tony Blair btw. But I'll judge him after 5 years in power.

 

[Saintjoey]

I agree those politicians were wrong. It appears the hospital wasn't hit (it was the carpark) and the number of deaths were massively inflated. But I don't believe a few low level MPs have the ability to contribute to "talks in the region breaking down"!

I meant the general disinformation that was spread at the time (BBC hugely responsible) impacted the talks as opposed to the labour MPs specifically. Although the actions and opinions of MPs do have far-reaching consequences.

 

[StJabbo1]

I absolutely do. I’ve written elsewhere that I cannot understand the motivations of the Ultra Zionists. I vaguely believe they believe the messiah hasn’t yet come so the land of Israel shouldn’t be lived in until it does. They’re lunatics who need to be dealt with accordingly. You won’t find me defending them.

I can assure you I am open to both sides of the debate and I implore everybody else to be as well.

I’m not meaning to exchange personal jibes. It’s a deeply troubling situation and I know people who have had their granddaughter kidnapped (she’s 3) so, of course, we all come at this from our own angles, agendas, belief systems and passions.

I hope the hostage situation can be resolved, some sort of exchange perhaps. Holding non-combatants and the massacres by Hamas is a war crime as far as I'm concerned. Israeli attacks that have wiped out families same. The setters violence also to be condemned along with indiscriminate attacks by Hezbollah. It's too depressing to continue, I'll leave it with this previously posted comment by Jeremy Bowen.
"But if this war does not deliver enough of a shock to break deeply-held prejudices and to make the idea of two states viable, nothing will. And without a mutually-acceptable way of ending the conflict, more generations of Palestinians and Israelis will be sentenced to more wars."

I'll take the dog we're minding out to my local bar for a pub lunch and watch England vs Oranje in the cricket WC or maybe wait and see the last overs of the Dutch innings, I'm expecting a bit of stick from my cloggie chums.

 

[EasyBreezer]

Funny how often people on here say "I'm surprised xx hasn't been mentioned on here" rather than just raising a question or point. I think they assume it's a kind of "Gotcha! Hiding from the truth'

This has become such a bizarre regular occurrence on here. IOAG getting pretty angry just the other day when I pointed it out then too..

 

[StJabbo1]

I hope the hostage situation can be resolved, some sort of exchange perhaps. Holding non-combatants and the massacres by Hamas is a war crime as far as I'm concerned. Israeli attacks that have wiped out families same. The setters violence also to be condemned along with indiscriminate attacks by Hezbollah. It's too depressing to continue, I'll leave it with this previously posted comment by Jeremy Bowen.
"But if this war does not deliver enough of a shock to break deeply-held prejudices and to make the idea of two states viable, nothing will. And without a mutually-acceptable way of ending the conflict, more generations of Palestinians and Israelis will be sentenced to more wars."

I'll take the dog we're minding out to my local bar for a pub lunch and watch England vs Oranje in the cricket WC or maybe wait and see the last overs of the Dutch innings, I'm expecting a bit of stick from my cloggie chums.

Stokes effort should have saved me from too much ribbing in the pub later.