Off Topic Politics Thread

[ChilcoSaint]

If Britain had obliterated another country in the way Russia has done to Ukraine, there would be massive protests almost immediately. The number of people who tookto the streets to protest against Iraq was really uite staggering. Even the media coverage was more questionning. I think there was an article in the Telegraoh last week about the scale of the protests in Russia which outlined just how small they are and that their significance is so small because the Russian general public is more likely to take the view of their leaders regardless of their propaganda machine.

By contrast, the western press has focussed on the humanitarian disaster but not really looking at why we are in this position and could we have done more to prevent Putin . There is also an absence of looking towards how this conflict can be ended. I think the West has clearly antagonized Putin and has some culpability but, by the same token, I think we should have made more effort to marginalise him sooner by diplomatic means as opposed to recruiting new NATO members from his neighbours. For example, it is only with the invasion of Ukraine that people have talked about making a war criminal whereas nothing has been mentioned regarding this with his actions in other parts of the former USSR and in Syria. Ukraine has shown the west in a really poor light and our political leaders to be inactive. I would like our media to challenge them albeit I fear that we are at a point where the west cannot afford to go to war against Putin.

I think you make some very good points Ian. The contrast between the reporting on the Ukraine war and Putin’s involvement in Syria, Chechnya, and Crimea has been stark. As for the ways to end the war, short of nuclear holocaust, you are absolutely right that it appears that NATO don’t seem to have any ideas.

However, you don’t seem to appreciate the difference between the consequences of protesting in Russia and in (up until now) liberal democracies like the UK. On the one hand, Putin has a history of simply eliminating political opponents by murdering them, whereas we don’t have a history of that in this country, although the name David Kelly springs to mind.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

Here’s the clip as Russian viewers watched it live:

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Extremely brave. Worth remembering that whilst on the match thread we'll be 'offering' Ralph some advice she's in jail with no hope if any defence
in a court case and totally uncertain when she'll be let out. That is why the Russian media people are what they are. Jail, humiliation, families threatened etc etc. Putin only understands one principle in life, utterly destroy those and their property that oppose you. China looks like they may be helping him realise his dream. Our lifestyle in the West has drifted into relying on a false premise with both Russia and China for many of our essential goods and services, hoping that our generosity to them in being less vociferous about Human Rights will keep the peace. It hasn't and won't either. All global political thinking needs a total reset.

 

[Archers Road]

Agreed, I find it very difficult to support people doing things to others that I would want done to me. As much as Putin is a prick I don’t think that’s an excuse to break into people’s property

London, a city with a chronic housing shortage and a huge homeless problem, is literally choc full of empty homes owned by wealthy foreign investors. The stretch of the river from Waterloo to Clapham Junction, is completely obscured by modern towerblocks full of empty luxury apartments - all projects initiated btw, when Boris Johnson was Mayor of London.

 

[San Tejón]

An article showing how much UK trade has grown, with countries that have poor human rights records, since Brexit.

https://bywire.news/articles/uk-tra...G39rHGtoqp77yeSNkzNQ_zYFFnd664y5-2otFWojrUIHQ

 

[tomw24]

I'm growing cautiously optimistic that Russia may soon withdraw its troops from Ukraine and bring an end to this carnage. Ukraine have said that they will never join NATO so Putin can spin it as a victory while Ukraine maintains its independence. There's still some way to go obviously but crucially Putin has an exit route here without suffering humiliation.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I'm growing cautiously optimistic that Russia may soon withdraw its troops from Ukraine and bring an end to this carnage. Ukraine have said that they will never join NATO so Putin can spin it as a victory while Ukraine maintains its independence. There's still some way to go obviously but crucially Putin has an exit route here without suffering humiliation.

Let's hope the Tom curse is only football related

 

[Archers Road]

Let's hope the Tom curse is only football related

It’s only when he makes a confident prediction, that we should be worried. Tentative expressions of muted optimism are okay I think.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Some good news today anyway.

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[Brinkworth Saint]

I'm growing cautiously optimistic that Russia may soon withdraw its troops from Ukraine and bring an end to this carnage. Ukraine have said that they will never join NATO so Putin can spin it as a victory while Ukraine maintains its independence. There's still some way to go obviously but crucially Putin has an exit route here without suffering humiliation.

Sounds a bit promising, but Ukraine is physically damaged in a major way, Putin is being declared a war criminal, has repeatedly lied about his intentions and in less than a month of carnage has created massive instability throughout the free world. I really do hope that firstly, the carnage stops asap, then somehow Russia withdraws asap, but then a clear process by which they pay for this total disaster and finally, Putin ends up in a faraway jail, along with his cronies, broke and never heard of again. Possibly not all going to happen, but the International community cannot just return to ' business as usual' until reparations and justice are both clearly visible for the people who have lost everything.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Sounds a bit promising, but Ukraine is physically damaged in a major way, Putin is being declared a war criminal, has repeatedly lied about his tensions and in less than a month of carnage has created massive instability throughout the free world. I really do hope that firstly, the carnage stops asap, then somehow Russia withdraws asap, but then a clear process by which they pay for this total disaster and finally, Putin ends up in a faraway jail, along with his cronies, broke and never heard of again. Possibly not all going to happen, but the International community cannot just return to ' business as usual' until reparations and justice are both clearly visible for the people who have lost everything.

The maiming and killing of every single one of the Ukrainian citizens and soldiers who are casualties of this completely unprovoked war all count as war crimes. Those lives can never return to where they were pre-invasion, neither can the millions who have fled the war or had their homes destroyed, or their livelihoods ruined.

Yes, reparations must be paid, but just as the Nazi leaders were tried at Nuremberg, Putin and his Kremlin cohorts and his generals must all be put in the dock. I have absolutely no idea how this will be brought about, but even if Putin decides to withdraw his forces today, Russia must remain a pariah state with worldwide sanctions applied until they are brought to justice.

The international community did nothing to stop Putin in Syria, or Chechnya, or the Crimea, but this has to be the final straw.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

The maiming and killing of every single one of the Ukrainian citizens and soldiers who are casualties of this completely unprovoked war all count as war crimes. Those lives can never return to where they were pre-invasion, neither can the millions who have fled the war or had their homes destroyed, or their livelihoods ruined.

Yes, reparations must be paid, but just as the Nazi leaders were tried at Nuremberg, Putin and his Kremlin cohorts and his generals must all be put in the dock. I have absolutely no idea how this will be brought about, but even if Putin decides to withdraw his forces today, Russia must remain a pariah state with worldwide sanctions applied until they are brought to justice.

The international community did nothing to stop Putin in Syria, or Chechnya, or the Crimea, but this has to be the final straw.

Absolutely. Spot on!

 

[tomw24]

The maiming and killing of every single one of the Ukrainian citizens and soldiers who are casualties of this completely unprovoked war all count as war crimes. Those lives can never return to where they were pre-invasion, neither can the millions who have fled the war or had their homes destroyed, or their livelihoods ruined.

Yes, reparations must be paid, but just as the Nazi leaders were tried at Nuremberg, Putin and his Kremlin cohorts and his generals must all be put in the dock. I have absolutely no idea how this will be brought about, but even if Putin decides to withdraw his forces today, Russia must remain a pariah state with worldwide sanctions applied until they are brought to justice.

The international community did nothing to stop Putin in Syria, or Chechnya, or the Crimea, but this has to be the final straw.

They should, but it's never going to happen.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

They should, but it's never going to happen.

I don’t accept that. They simply have to pay for what they are doing.

 

[tomw24]

I don’t accept that. They simply have to pay for what they are doing.

How? Putin isn't going to leave Russia and you can't just walk into the Kremlin and grab him even if an arrest warrant is granted. Russia isn't a signatory to the ICC so they can't prosecute any of its leaders for starting the war and if they ask the UN Security Council to investigate Russia will veto any potential action taken against them. The only possible way Putin can be held to account is if the entire country turns against him and hands him over to the ICC. And I don't see that happening.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

How? Putin isn't going to leave Russia and you can't just walk into the Kremlin and grab him even if an arrest warrant is granted. Russia isn't a signatory to the ICC so they can't prosecute any of its leaders for starting the war and if they ask the UN Security Council to investigate Russia will veto any potential action taken against them. The only possible way Putin can be held to account is if the entire country turns against him and hands him over to the ICC. And I don't see that happening.

That’s the entire point of the sanctions. Putin is only in power as long as the oligarchs decide it’s to their benefit. Even after the Ukraine war is over, those sanctions have to stay in force.

 

[Gregm1988]

That’s the entire point of the sanctions. Putin is only in power as long as the oligarchs decide it’s to their benefit. Even after the Ukraine war is over, those sanctions have to stay in force.

The US have come out and said they aren’t intended to be permanent

But they did say they needed an “irreversible withdrawal”. I don’t see how they can get guarantees of that. The removal of Putin would go a long way towards that but they can’t demand that and it won’t be signed up to. Should he be removed prior then maybe but that is unlikely

Hopefully there is a permanent shift in energy strategy away from Russia. Germany needs to wake up and realise they can’t rely on fuel from someone who they have been an adversary of in both world wars and have never been allied with them in their entire national history. Even when they were states you are still looking back 200+ years

 

[ChilcoSaint]

The US have come out and said they aren’t intended to be permanent

But they did say they needed an “irreversible withdrawal”. I don’t see how they can get guarantees of that. The removal of Putin would go a long way towards that but they can’t demand that and it won’t be signed up to. Should he be removed prior then maybe but that is unlikely

Hopefully there is a permanent shift in energy strategy away from Russia. Germany needs to wake up and realise they can’t rely on fuel from someone who they have been an adversary of in both world wars and have never been allied with them in their entire national history. Even when they were states you are still looking back 200+ years

The energy strategy of the EU in particular is key to this. Long-term net carbon zero, but short-term buying of oil and gas from even Saudi and Iran is marginally better that their over-reliance on Russia. That’s essentially what has paid for this war, and it has to stop.

 

[Gregm1988]

The energy strategy of the EU in particular is key to this. Long-term net carbon zero, but short-term buying of oil and gas from even Saudi and Iran is marginally better that their over-reliance on Russia. That’s essentially what has paid for this war, and it has to stop.

Earlier on in the thread there was disagreement over Germany abandoning their nuclear power. Especially as it was in response to a disaster caused by that particular area’s proximity to tectonic plates - an issue Germany does not have

Now I guess the challenge will be pointing to the Chernobyl. But if we are in a situation where Germany is getting shelled then things have likely already gone well beyond a point where that is top of the list of concerns

 

[- Doing The Lambert Walk]

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[Brinkworth Saint]

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12 points too many.
As offered by another Twitter contribution and Chilco earlier, there's only 3 needed:
1 Russia out if Ukraine, Crimea, and all the rest of Ukraine.
2.All reparations paid for by Russia.
3.All Russian government and military people face war crime charges, right down the chain of command from Putin downwards