Off Topic Politics Thread

[Ian Thumwood]

I am quite staggered at the way the current political situation has beeen reported. The issues that appear to be dictating the future of the PM seem to be totally disjudged. The rules may have been broken regarding the parties which Boris may or may not have attended. I find it staggering that people are calling for his head because of these matters. Frankly, they should have been doing this back in the spring of 2020 when it became apparent that the government was totally unporepared for the pandemic,

Personally, I think that Boris would have been long gone had we hd a decent Leader of the Opposition. Frnakly., Starmer has been pathetic but we should not be surprised as he is exactly part pf the sme Establishment as most of the Tories. He has been more enthusiastic is persecuting Jermey Corbyn than holding Johnson to account and the issues such as defending the right to protest, "letting Covid rip." the awarding of contracts to cronies for medical supplies, threatening to turn the Royal Navy against refugees are all things which Starmer should have pushed against to dislodge Boris. Instead, the best he can offer is that Boris unwittingly attended a party which should not have taken place.

The issue of the Tory MP for Bury crossing over should ot have been a surprise. Since when have any Tories had any morals ? The fact that someone from the Conservatives can find a home in Starmer's Labour Party sepaks volumes. Both the Conservatives and Labour are jostling for control with no real interest in the people they are supposed to represent. It is a tragedy that Jeremy Corbynprobbly peaked too early. It would be fascinating to imagine a Corbyn led government getting a complete whitewash against the Tories in the next election instead of the premise of another "Blue Labour" government.

 

[Gregm1988]

I am quite staggered at the way the current political situation has beeen reported. The issues that appear to be dictating the future of the PM seem to be totally disjudged. The rules may have been broken regarding the parties which Boris may or may not have attended. I find it staggering that people are calling for his head because of these matters. Frankly, they should have been doing this back in the spring of 2020 when it became apparent that the government was totally unporepared for the pandemic,

Personally, I think that Boris would have been long gone had we hd a decent Leader of the Opposition. Frnakly., Starmer has been pathetic but we should not be surprised as he is exactly part pf the sme Establishment as most of the Tories. He has been more enthusiastic is persecuting Jermey Corbyn than holding Johnson to account and the issues such as defending the right to protest, "letting Covid rip." the awarding of contracts to cronies for medical supplies, threatening to turn the Royal Navy against refugees are all things which Starmer should have pushed against to dislodge Boris. Instead, the best he can offer is that Boris unwittingly attended a party which should not have taken place.

The issue of the Tory MP for Bury crossing over should ot have been a surprise. Since when have any Tories had any morals ? The fact that someone from the Conservatives can find a home in Starmer's Labour Party sepaks volumes. Both the Conservatives and Labour are jostling for control with no real interest in the people they are supposed to represent. It is a tragedy that Jeremy Corbynprobbly peaked too early. It would be fascinating to imagine a Corbyn led government getting a complete whitewash against the Tories in the next election instead of the premise of another "Blue Labour" government.

I just don’t think we live in a country where a Corbyn lead labour government get a whitewash against the tories regardless of the circumstances

The only way we truly get more left leaning as a country is shift the Overton window after a long period of centre left style government. This should have been post Blair but it got messed up. The exact reasons for this I haven’t thought hard enough about. The Iraq war was likely part of it (even though the tories would have done the same). And the Liberal Democrats for propping up Cameron when they absolutely didn’t need to. Made them seem acceptable and there has been a slide since then

 

[Archers Road]

I was knocking on doors for Labour at the last election, in a seat they really should have won (Finchley and Golders Green). I think I can safely say that Corbyn, rightly or wrongly, was the reason they didn’t.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I was knocking on doors for Labour at the last election, in a seat they really should have won (Finchley and Golders Green). I think I can safely say that Corbyn, rightly or wrongly, was the reason they didn’t.

Corbyn inspired people to make Labour the biggest political party on Europe. Let's not forget that.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Corbyn inspired people to make Labour the biggest political party on Europe. Let's not forget that.

Corbyn was inspirational, but he could never win an election. The press and media in this country would find something, or make up something if necessary, to prevent it. Look at Michael Foot’s donkey jacket, Kinnock’s triumphalism, Miliband’s bacon sandwich, and the extremely vague antisemitism allegations against Corbyn as examples. The exception was of course Blair, who had sold his soul to Murdoch before the 1997 election.

To this day I still mourn John Smith.

 

[Archers Road]

Corbyn inspired people to make Labour the biggest political party on Europe. Let's not forget that.

To be fair, on his watch Labour as a grass roots movement was revitalised. But he inspired the electorate in seats that had been Labour for decades, to vote Conservative. Might be a good idea not too forget that either.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

To be fair, on his watch Labour as a grass roots movement was revitalised. But he inspired the electorate in seats that had been Labour for decades, to vote Conservative. Might be a good idea not too forget that either.

Brexit inspired those people too, let’s not forget.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I never got the anti-COrbyn thing. The people who I knew not to be Tories were enthused by him. When he was elected, he was higely popular nd looked to transform politics until th BBC's political editor put the knife in. His reputation was effectivly tarnished by the BBc whpo are supposed to be impartial.

I think the infliuence of the papers is over-egged. The printed press is in decline and I would suggest that it is the internet that has permitted politicans siuch as Boris and Trump to get elected when it would have previously not been feasible. It is amazing how people are calling for the head of Boris but still voted for him none-the-less although everyone had no doubts as to how it would end up.

The one good thng that will come out of this will be that the experiment with popularism will have been seen to have been a failure. Anyone assoicated as an allie of Boris will find it difficult in the future to retain any creditility. Boris will never hold any office again and I wouldnot be surprised if he ultimtely faces the threat of criminal charges. I thing they will have more success burying his career than they did with the war criminal Tony Blair.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

"It is a tragedy that Jeremy Corbyn probably peaked too early."

You really should be putting jokes in the off topic thread.

 

[San Tejón]

Corbyn was inspirational, but he could never win an election. The press and media in this country would find something, or make up something if necessary, to prevent it. Look at Michael Foot’s donkey jacket, Kinnock’s triumphalism, Miliband’s bacon sandwich, and the extremely vague antisemitism allegations against Corbyn as examples. The exception was of course Blair, who had sold his soul to Murdoch before the 1997 election.

To this day I still mourn John Smith.

Reference the anti semitism.
I remember, a while back, reading a detailed report about the various allegations thrown at Corbyn, to defame his character.
The report stated that a Full Fact internet search showed that searches including the word anti semitism and the name Jeremy Corbyn had a zero hit rate in all his years as an MP, that is UNTIL he became leader of the party, in which case the number of hits rose, iirc, to more than 7000.
I have since searched for this report, but haven’t been able to find it again, but if it was correct it would clearly show that the sudden surge in accusations were a coordinated character assassination.

 

[Schad]

I never got the anti-COrbyn thing. The people who I knew not to be Tories were enthused by him.

There's likely a tremendous amount of selection bias in the people you know, though. Corbyn had the worst favourability ratings of any major party politician that I have ever seen. He went into an election with less than 30% of the public approving of the job he was doing in every poll that had been taken for ten months. It wasn't just Tories that didn't like him. It was also Lib Dem voters, independents, and an awful lot of Labour voters, too. You simply cannot win an election with a small cadre of highly enthusiastic support and everyone else thinking that you shouldn't be within the same post code as the PM's residence.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

There's likely a tremendous amount of selection bias in the people you know, though. Corbyn had the worst favourability ratings of any major party politician that I have ever seen. He went into an election with less than 30% of the public approving of the job he was doing in every poll that had been taken for ten months. It wasn't just Tories that didn't like him. It was also Lib Dem voters, independents, and an awful lot of Labour voters, too. You simply cannot win an election with a small cadre of highly enthusiastic support and everyone else thinking that you shouldn't be within the same post code as the PM's residence.

It was his stance, or lack of it, on Brexit that put a lot of non-Labour and non-Tory voters off Corbyn.

 

[San Tejón]

An interesting report, with an interactive table (hover on the ticks for dates) showing how some EU countries have reacted to the increase in wholesale energy prices.
The UK is included in the table.

https://www.bruegel.org/publication...o-shield-consumers-from-rising-energy-prices/

 

[Gregm1988]

I never got the anti-COrbyn thing. The people who I knew not to be Tories were enthused by him. When he was elected, he was higely popular nd looked to transform politics until th BBC's political editor put the knife in. His reputation was effectivly tarnished by the BBc whpo are supposed to be impartial.

I think the infliuence of the papers is over-egged. The printed press is in decline and I would suggest that it is the internet that has permitted politicans siuch as Boris and Trump to get elected when it would have previously not been feasible. It is amazing how people are calling for the head of Boris but still voted for him none-the-less although everyone had no doubts as to how it would end up.

The one good thng that will come out of this will be that the experiment with popularism will have been seen to have been a failure. Anyone assoicated as an allie of Boris will find it difficult in the future to retain any creditility. Boris will never hold any office again and I wouldnot be surprised if he ultimtely faces the threat of criminal charges. I thing they will have more success burying his career than they did with the war criminal Tony Blair.

I think the comments about the populism experiment being over and Boris facing criminal charges are both very optimistic

 

[The 83rd Minute]

Boris “Big Dog” Johnson, is removing all remaining restrictions because, if you’re incapable of sticking to the rules, you might as well get rid of them.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I never got the anti-COrbyn thing. The people who I knew not to be Tories were enthused by him. When he was elected, he was higely popular nd looked to transform politics until th BBC's political editor put the knife in. His reputation was effectivly tarnished by the BBc whpo are supposed to be impartial.

I think the infliuence of the papers is over-egged. The printed press is in decline and I would suggest that it is the internet that has permitted politicans siuch as Boris and Trump to get elected when it would have previously not been feasible. It is amazing how people are calling for the head of Boris but still voted for him none-the-less although everyone had no doubts as to how it would end up.

The one good thng that will come out of this will be that the experiment with popularism will have been seen to have been a failure. Anyone assoicated as an allie of Boris will find it difficult in the future to retain any creditility. Boris will never hold any office again and I wouldnot be surprised if he ultimtely faces the threat of criminal charges. I thing they will have more success burying his career than they did with the war criminal Tony Blair.

Sorry, but I totally disagree

The reason for corbyn being unpopular was because Rupert murdoch and the other media moguls all don’t want to be taxed more, so they printed slur after slur in all the papers about him.

The mass media has ultimate say over people’s opinions unfortunately.
If anything their influence is stronger now than ever. There is a huge lack of critical thinking, and seeing things from both sides.

Look at the last few weeks for example. They’ve been sat on the Boris party story for over a year, and can discredit him at any moment.

Never forget that the media controls who is in power at all times. Never.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[The 83rd Minute]

Hypothetical I know but:

If politicians had stuck to their principles in the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, could the political landscape have been a lot different now. Bear in mind, Johnson was a remainer, until DomCum masterminded a plan for him to become PM. The irony for Corbyn during his leadership of the Labour Party was, that he was a lifelong leaver and had voted for the UK to leave the EU the first time around. Playing party politics meant, he couldn’t back his own conviction. The hypothetical question is; If Corbyn had not become the Labour leader, and instead, stuck to his conviction and lead the Leave campaign. And Johnson stuck to his and lead the Remain campaign. What difference would it have made to the political careers of Corbyn and Johnson?

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Hypothetical I know but:

If politicians had stuck to their principles in the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, could the political landscape have been a lot different now. Bear in mind, Johnson was a remainer, until DomCum masterminded a plan for him to become PM. The irony for Corbyn during his leadership of the Labour Party was, that he was a lifelong leaver and had voted for the UK to leave the EU the first time around. Playing party politics meant, he couldn’t back his own conviction. The hypothetical question is; If Corbyn had not become the Labour leader, and instead, stuck to his conviction and lead the Leave campaign. And Johnson stuck to his and lead the Remain campaign. What difference would it have made to the political careers of Corbyn and Johnson?

I think that Corbyn was unable to handle the Breixt debate because , deep down, he was not convinced by the European project. You can understand his reticence because the whole EU raison d'etre is to protect business and put economies before people. The wierd thing about the EU is that it is an excellent idea in principle and, strictly speaking, should be working harder for it's citizens as opposed to the banks and businesses. I can entirely appreciate Jeremy's position but I was always of the opinion that if the EU had been in favour of a more "Internationalist" approach and less capitalist, it would have been very popular on the Left. I never understood why the Left in the UK have never presented this argument. There are too many people in the EU who are thinking of their country's own interest as opposed to working as a whole. The problem seems to get worse as you head eastwards. It is not helped by the likes of Macron whose concept of what a united Europe should be is entirely wrong.

I never felt that the British public were ever entirely on board with the EU nor had the ability to grasp that the changes necessary could only be made by working from within. Corbyn understood the flawed ideology of the EU but could not offer an alternative. It would be really difficult too to align yourself with an organisation that incorporates countries with an outlook such as Hungary. Like many politicians on the Right and Left, Corbyn could see the flaws in the EU and perhaps could also envisage all countries beyond Europe working together. Given the current situation with the environment, you wonder if a Euro-centric vision is now too narrow minded. Personally, the advantages of being in the EU far outweigh the disadvanatges and Brexit was never going to resolve issues like immigration which actually has little to do with the EU and is a world-wide issue.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I think that Corbyn was unable to handle the Breixt debate because , deep down, he was not convinced by the European project. You can understand his reticence because the whole EU raison d'etre is to protect business and put economies before people. The wierd thing about the EU is that it is an excellent idea in principle and, strictly speaking, should be working harder for it's citizens as opposed to the banks and businesses. I can entirely appreciate Jeremy's position but I was always of the opinion that if the EU had been in favour of a more "Internationalist" approach and less capitalist, it would have been very popular on the Left. I never understood why the Left in the UK have never presented this argument. There are too many people in the EU who are thinking of their country's own interest as opposed to working as a whole. The problem seems to get worse as you head eastwards. It is not helped by the likes of Macron whose concept of what a united Europe should be is entirely wrong.

I never felt that the British public were ever entirely on board with the EU nor had the ability to grasp that the changes necessary could only be made by working from within. Corbyn understood the flawed ideology of the EU but could not offer an alternative. It would be really difficult too to align yourself with an organisation that incorporates countries with an outlook such as Hungary. Like many politicians on the Right and Left, Corbyn could see the flaws in the EU and perhaps could also envisage all countries beyond Europe working together. Given the current situation with the environment, you wonder if a Euro-centric vision is now too narrow minded. Personally, the advantages of being in the EU far outweigh the disadvanatges and Brexit was never going to resolve issues like immigration which actually has little to do with the EU and is a world-wide issue.

Good points Ian. I think the basic issue with the British Public (huge generalisation here) is that they were never 'European' as people. In Europe, the countries have their issues with each other, but maybe as they are joined by land, they just feel the same, but different. I always felt it was an "us and them' feeling in the country. Maybe that is my insecurities creeping in, but the UK always seemed to try to assert "we're British". Nothing wrong with that, but it often came across as "We are superior and look at what all you silly Europeans are up to". Mainly the media probably, but that is how it felt. The average man on the street was never going to weigh up the pros against the cons and accept it.

We are also an island - this maybe contributes to the feeling of isolation and wanting to be ourselves. Sadly, the separation from Europe IMO has caused a lot more harm than good and the perception of "johnny foreigner" is even worse now.

With the Tories so pro Brexit at the last election, we needed the other side to balance it out with a clear remain stance..let's face it on that alone they would have got nearly 50% of the vote. Sadly, it was a wishy washy in between stance.