Off Topic Politics Thread

[StJabbo1]

Praggers of the World Unite

Certainly not, I am preaching(!?) Pragmatism as an Electoral Strategy and maybe even as a Political Strategy, not as a Political Doctrine

Once you're in power you don't need to be quite so pragmatic
The British people won't vote for 'Revolution' while most of the media brand anyone left of Blair a Marxist
but they might give a government a 2nd term if it is demonstrating improvement for the whole country
and that government might then be able to gradually deliver a Revolution by Evolution

Praggers don't preach , We'll be on a winning streak.
With you there re evolution.

 

[Osvaldorama]

If unarmed people demanding political change look like terrorists to someone, the someone is probably the problem.

A massive mob of people breaking into your gated community would frighten anyone, regardless of what they are protesting. This isnt a BLM thing, its a common sense thing.

Ive seen videos at other protests, of bystanders stood at their windows giving protestors thumbs up, and then rocks come smashing through.

Its naive to think all protestors are peaceful. A lot of people have been using them as cover to look for trouble. I'm not saying the couple acted correctly, im just saying its completely understandable in the circumstances and doesnt mean they are racist.

 

[Libby]

We can tell that it was totally peaceful because after they passed Rambo and Ramboette, the protesters continued on to the mayor's house, where they proceeded to sit on the ground and chant for her to resign:

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They did not storm her house, they did not destroy anything, they simply protested. Which is almost universally what the protesters have done everywhere, when they have not first been attacked by police.

So you can tell it was peaceful because of something that happened after they passed the house? So you agree the couple in question would have no idea at that stage? Only takes one nutter to begin a snowball effect as we've seen throughout these protests. Most protests start out as peaceful.

I'm with Os on this one, not saying the bloke was right to do what he did but I can understand his worries about the situation. Tensions are incredibly high there at present so it's perfectly natural for people to feel threatened and become defensive.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

I don't like mobs. I also dislike autonomous zones.

 

[Schad]

So you can tell it was peaceful because of something that happened after they passed the house? So you agree the couple in question would have no idea at that stage? Only takes one nutter to begin a snowball effect as we've seen throughout these protests. Most protests start out as peaceful.

I'm with Os on this one, not saying the bloke was right to do what he did but I can understand his worries about the situation. Tensions are incredibly high there at present so it's perfectly natural for people to feel threatened and become defensive.

You're absolutely correct that most protests start out as peaceful. And they remain peaceful, unless the police riot. When the police don't riot, neither do the protesters. A number of police departments have discovered that their best tool when faced with these protests is simply going the **** home. Because when they do that, the protests remain protests.

And I'm telling you that it was peaceful because they had done nothing to suggest otherwise. Going through a gate is not an act of violence that merits the threat of lethal force.

 

[Schad]

I don't like mobs. I also dislike autonomous zones.

What, in your eyes, differentiates a protest from a mob?

 

[Libby]

You're absolutely correct that most protests start out as peaceful. And they remain peaceful, unless the police riot. When the police don't riot, neither do the protesters. A number of police departments have discovered that their best tool when faced with these protests is simply going the **** home. Because when they do that, the protests remain protests.

And I'm telling you that it was peaceful because they had done nothing to suggest otherwise. Going through a gate is not an act of violence that merits the threat of lethal force.

That bit in bold is quite simply not true, absolutely bonkers to suggest that imo. There will always be some in large scale crowds looking for trouble.

And yes I agree with your last sentence. Like I say I don't think he was right to do what he did, but if a group of protesters smash through a gate then it's hardly a huge leap to think that there may be a handful among them looking to cause more criminal damage.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Willful destruction of property. Intimidation. Attacks on police.
Add to that ignoring warnings about a pandemic.
It really is causing more harm, than it is raising awareness.
That's why its lost support.

 

[Schad]

That bit in bold is quite simply not true, absolutely bonkers to suggest otherwise imo.

No, seriously, it isn't. The vast majority of protests have remained peaceful (and even self-policing) when the police do not preemptively employ violence against them.

There's a lawyer who has been keeping a running list of instances of police attacking protesters unprovoked. He's up to 685 entries:

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There is a mob that is dangerously out of control and provoking violence in the streets. They can be readily identified by their badges. It's really notable that, when the National Guard got called in, things settled. Not because the National Guard is more fearsome -- the police are just as heavily armed -- but because the military has rules of engagement when dealing with civilians, whereas the police riot.

 

[Schad]

Willful destruction of property. Intimidation. Attacks on police.
Add to that ignoring warnings about a pandemic.
It really is causing more harm, than it is raising awareness.
That's why its lost support.

It hasn't lost support at all. Support for the movement has never been higher among the general public.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-lives-matter-police-reform-opinion-poll-28-06-2020/

My cynical explanation: now a lot of white people know someone who was involved in a protest that was attacked by police. When the police are indiscriminately beating black protesters, you think that maybe they did something to provoke it. When they're beating your friend's honour roll niece, you start to think that maybe the police are something of a problem.

 

[Libby]

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying it's nonsense to suggest that it's the only thing that's happened with regards to protests turning violent. Some people will sadly be intent on violence from the outset.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Its properly mad to suggest that the police are all corrupt.

Most people become police officers to make society better.

The truth is, there is a small percentage of idiots on both sides

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

I have a lot of respect for the British police. But I think that the overly sensitive way they have handled the marches has allowed more criminality to creep in. The media championing a group of people (I won't write mob this time) pulling down statues in city centre's has fueled this further. Are you seriously trying to tell me you were happy with what you saw? Should we hide the past and pull down Churchill & Sir Frances Drake?

Unless you are from some very special Anointed stock, then somewhere in your families history you would have suffered some form of servitude, occupation or barbarity. You don't have to feel guilty for who you are today, you just need to be a good citizen. But if you are overwhelmed with your own guilt, then I suggest kneeling at every opportunity & hanging around towns in large groups while in the middle of a pandemic.

 

[Libby]

I was quite happy about the Bristol statue tbf. Thought it was a very powerful moment.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Nah, there's way to do things, and that is not one of them.

 

[Libby]

The other way wasn't working. Even a suggested plaque on the statue to document the fact he was a slave trader was blocked iirc.

The Churchill and Cenotaph stuff was ****ing idiotic though and caused more harm than good.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Edward Coulson was a merchant, a philanthropist. He owned ships, the ships carried slaves, his primary concern was not the slave trade. And even if it was, where do we draw the line? How long before they march on the Palace, because I'll tell you a cold truth, the crown made a lot of money like everyone else at that time from the unsavoury slave trade.
Lets stop destroying, and start educating. The statue is more powerful on display where people can learn from it.

 

[Schad]

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying it's nonsense to suggest that it's the only thing that's happened with regards to protests turning violent. Some people will sadly be intent on violence from the outset.

It's not the only thing. It's absolutely most of the problem, though. In instances where the police have left protesters alone, the protesters have physically prevented the idiots who wanted to smash things up.

And that, in the main, is the difference. We can have the "it's just a few idiots on both sides" argument, but watch what other police officers do in all of those videos where a cop randomly starts beating someone, or when they shoved that old man (causing brain damage). Not a ****ing thing. Generally, they form up to protect the cops who are beating people. And when the police are happy to close ranks around bad cops -- as they always have been -- it doesn't matter if only a fraction of them are actively the problem, because the rest of them have enabled that problem.

And it's often far worse than that. A lot of US police officers have subscribed to the doctrine of Killology (seriously), where they are trained to act as if they are in a permanent warzone, and taught to be prepared to kill at all times. The officer who murdered Castile was an adherent:

https://www.insider.com/bulletproof...-trainer-teaching-officers-how-to-kill-2020-6

His overly aggressive style prepares law enforcement officers for a job under siege, where they're front line troops who are "at war" with the streets. Officers need to be prepared to battle the communities they're told to protect, Grossman has said. And ideally in Grossman's eyes, officers need to learn to kill less hesitantly.

That's not some fringe weirdo. Well, he is a fringe weirdo, but he's one that has been generously compensated by a whole bunch of major police departments to teach their officers how to be more willing to kill.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I have got to say that when I see these Americans toting their guns, the first thing that pops in to my mind is how annoying it is when Brits get banded together with the Yanks by other nationals whose first language is not English. I have received abuse a few times in France when people think that I am an American. Something like this really delineates between our two nations. When someone uses a firearm to defend their property as happened with Anthony Martin twenty years ago, it is a talking point because to shoot someone is not the natural reaction to a burglary. Firearms are too readily available in the States and very few Americans, including the police, are responsible enough to use them.

Things under Trump have definitely declined and I think that intolerance is the accepted norm. We can see pictures like this and be horrified yet the Americans will state their right to bear arms and will seriously believe that their civil liberties are being infringed if questioned about using weapon that is too dangerous for their tiny minds. Their whole mentally is completely wrong. The business about the lockdown being against their civil liberties no only demonstrates a lack of common sense but, a more worrying perception that they are unable to grasp when something is in their own interest. My parents went on holiday somewhere many years back and a Texan tourist got picked up for carrying a very large knife and he was incredulous than anyone could perceive that it was an issue for everyone else. I do not understand the mentality of these people. The propensity to resort to weapons is something that clearly separates our two nations. I would be so much more comfortable if we had less and less to do with unpleasant countries like the US. They are really no better than the Saudi's or the Chinese. Quite why some Brits believe we should have a greater affinity to the Americans is beyond comprehension and this goes well beyond an ignorance of British history. The Yanks are no more of a democracy than China.

 

[Libby]

Edward Coulson was a merchant, a philanthropist. He owned ships, the ships carried slaves, his primary concern was not the slave trade. And even if it was, where do we draw the line? How long before they march on the Palace, because I'll tell you a cold truth, the crown made a lot of money like everyone else at that time from the unsavoury slave trade.
Lets stop destroying, and start educating. The statue is more powerful on display where people can learn from it.

People will learn a hell of a lot more with the statue in the museum with ropes still intact. Statues are for heroes imo, a bloke who kept thousands of slaves and murdered lots of sick ones simply isn't a hero. And I've no loyalty to the Crown either, they can get in the bin as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying it being pulled down educated more people about him than the statue ever did. I know I'd never even heard of him before that incident, wager lots of others were the same.

I'll leave it there anyway as I'm not interested in a long debate over it.