Off Topic Politics Thread

[Beddy]

Yes there is categoric proof that the 2016 referendum was illegal. The Electoral Commission said that it would have been declared null and void if it hadn’t been just an advisory poll. The fact that Parliament decided to act upon an illegal referendum was another matter entirely, and the fact that there was a huge majority for triggering Article 50 makes it pretty much impossible for “they”, whoever “they” are, to challenge it in court. But that does give you the mechanism for the second referendum though, make it a binding one, so any irregularities by either side can be dealt with.

Ok then as the tories haven't a majority....why haven't parliament declared it illegal by out voting the tories on it advisory or not?? Sorry it just isn't making sense to me.....When did the word advisory come into things??
If it was declared illegal that means its against the law surely..........So it is either against the law or not.........I may not be a lawyer but illegal to me means its against the law............if its against the law then it is............No way round it .............

 

[Beddy]

1: If we don't have a deal, how do we reconcile crashing out of the EU with somehow not breaking the GFA?
2: If no existing deals can be agreed on by parliament, how do we prevent no deal, and therefore problem 1?
3: Blackmailing all parties and members to go along with the only deal currently on the table (Boris's fantasy purely designed to achieve failure of negotiation and hence no deal) or accept no deal is an afront against democracy,
4: It is only this government that doesn't see revoking Art50 as a possible option. In order to have a GE and potentially change government, a delay to Brexit day is required hence rushing to "get this over with" is effectively trying to block another GE that can actually end the problem in time. I liken the expression in bold to euthanasia rather than trying to find a cure.

Surely as Boris doesn't have a majority all it needs is the house to revoke article 50 by vote.........Why haven't they done that if they are so sure a remain is the best thing.........????

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Ok then as the tories haven't a majority....why haven't parliament declared it illegal by out voting the tories on it advisory or not?? Sorry it just isn't making sense to me.....When did the word advisory come into things??
If it was declared illegal that means its against the law surely..........So it is either against the law or not.........I may not be a lawyer but illegal to me means its against the law............if its against the law then it is............No way round it .............

The referendum was advisory. Parliament did not need to act on it. They chose to though rather than just using it as a signal of public feeling rather than an instruction to start proceeding immediately towards Brexit

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Surely as Boris doesn't have a majority all it needs is the house to revoke article 50 by vote.........Why haven't they done that if they are so sure a remain is the best thing.........????

I think it's because there isn't exact consensus in the rest of parliament on what we should do plus there is the media doing it's best to increase the divisions in society that would bring the threat of civil unrest or worse if Art50 was revoked without going back to the people first.
I think this bit I found somewhere explains why a parliamentary revocation on Art50 didn't just happen.
Article 50 notification may be revoked unilaterally by the notifying member without the permission of the other EU members, provided the state has not already left the EU, and provided the revocation is decided “following a democratic process in accordance with national constitutional requirements"

 

[Beddy]

The referendum was advisory. Parliament did not need to act on it. They chose to though rather than just using it as a signal of public feeling rather than an instruction to start proceeding immediately towards Brexit

So it can't be illegal to act on it then can it?? So it isn't against the law? what the tories did in their opinion was right........... let's not forget all the main parties were against us leaving................

Edit............,.. in truth though mate we are all going round and round in circles.........Best thing in my view with the country so undecided would be to revoke article 50 but warn E U we will be going back to the people in 4 years time or something. That might give the EU time to correct some of the things that are not liked by us and others............

 

[StJabbo1]

Aren't you calling the first one "undemocratic"?..........So what would be wrong with leavers calling a second one "undemocratic" should they lose..........If there is categoric proof that the first one was illegal as some allege.........Why haven't they taken the government to court? Surely as easy as it was for the parliament shutdown? Or is it all propaganda....just wishful thinking....just a smudge campaign to persuade those that voted leave it was false.................Sorry guys......While I have some sympathy....and strangely I genuinely do....but to say I didn't consider my children's future or anybody else's is crap and beyond comprehension. Mind you they have made it worse by all this messing around one way or tother. We should have been well on the recovery by now had we left originally. Either Way lets get this over and done with. Let's begin to put this country back on its feet in or out of the EU.

The fraudulent referendum of 2016 has no relevance to today's horrendous reality. Voters were mislead by the Barclay brothers, Rothermere and Murdoch propaganda machines. Add Cambridge Analytica's illegal email and social media campaign funded by Aaron Banks's murky roubles plus the statements made by leave leaders as so well shown on the Led by Donkeys posters. Democratic my arse! The majority was far too small for such a momentous decision. Another referendum would be democracy in action.
Since 2016 some leavers have died others changed their minds add the new batch of young and a motivated overseas group then I believe remain will win.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

So it can't be illegal to act on it then can it?? So it isn't against the law? what the tories did in their opinion was right........... let's not forget all the main parties were against us leaving................

The referendum was carried out in an illegal way, but was only advisory hence no actual breach of law. Acting on the advisory refendum results was a legal procedure and regardless of HOW The results were achieved dud not constitute an illegal act.

I feel sometimes that I am having to use small words and talk slowly and clearly...

 

[Archers Road]

You say tomayto and I say tomato...You say Brexit, and I say ****it...let's call the whole thing off...

 

[fatletiss]

Aren't you calling the first one "undemocratic"?..........So what would be wrong with leavers calling a second one "undemocratic" should they lose..........If there is categoric proof that the first one was illegal as some allege.........Why haven't they taken the government to court? Surely as easy as it was for the parliament shutdown? Or is it all propaganda....just wishful thinking....just a smudge campaign to persuade those that voted leave it was false.................Sorry guys......While I have some sympathy....and strangely I genuinely do....but to say I didn't consider my children's future or anybody else's is crap and beyond comprehension. Mind you they have made it worse by all this messing around one way or tother. We should have been well on the recovery by now had we left originally. Either Way lets get this over and done with. Let's begin to put this country back on its feet in or out of the EU.

I can’t find a way to say this without sounding rude, so I’m sorry in advance. This is utter nonsense. Why are “we” getting blamed for making it worse with all the messing around? It’s not us FFS Beddy, it’s politicians and you may wonder why so many haven’t rolled over and taken an agreement to leave it why they have voted to stop a no deal.

As for “well on the way to recovery by now” .... please tell me how and what because I’m going blue in the face with all the times I’ve asked how that would happen, yet no answers. None!!!! If we’d be well in the way, you should be able to tell us how if you believe that, unless it’s just a statement and a guess.

You also say above that you considered your children’s future. This is odd. All through this you’ve told us you have your reasons.... so tell me, when you “considered your children’s future, what was it you considered and what was it that you saw or heard that was going to happen, to make you decide that Brexit was best for your children.

My guess (and I’ll understand if you’re offended by this bit, but I have to say it) is that line is poppycock and the only reason you voted leave is these personal reasons. If you can’t tell us what about being out would be better for your kids ( you haven’t been able to for the last three years and we’ve asked and asked you) then you have out your personal reasons above the future of your family.

Apologies in advance, but I get so frustrated with what appear to me as just blind xenophobia. That statement goes for my Dad too.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

So it can't be illegal to act on it then can it?? So it isn't against the law? what the tories did in their opinion was right........... let's not forget all the main parties were against us leaving................

Edit............,.. in truth though mate we are all going round and round in circles.........Best thing in my view with the country so undecided would be to revoke article 50 but warn E U we will be going back to the people in 4 years time or something. That might give the EU time to correct some of the things that are not liked by us and others............

I have a lot of sympathy for your last paragraph. Everyone knows there is a lot that needs fixing in the EU, but wouldn’t it be better to help force reform by being a full member rather than moaning from the outside? Leave with or without a deal, or remain, the EU will still end up being our biggest trading partner one way or another in the end, so let’s have the strongest possible hand in that relationship. Anyway, most of the so-called faults with the EU aren’t real at all, but were simply made up by Boris and co.

You’re still forgetting that the reason the referendum was held was nothing to do with any real or perceived faults with the EU though. The reason the referendum was held, the reason it was fixed so Leave won, and the reason the 80 or so ERG MP’s will always vote against anything remotely resembling a Customs Union, is ENTIRELY down to the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive, which becomes EU law (and British if we stay) in January. Unless we can somehow achieve a society in Britain where the super-rich don’t control pretty much all the press and media, and force them to pay their taxes like the rest of us have to, this sort of thing will keep happening. The best thing would be never to let the Tories anywhere near government ever again.

 

[Farked19]

The trouble is that Cameron let this genie out of the bottle for party political reasons and it's not possible to get it back. The problem with revoke is that the Leavers will carry on saying "if only we had left things would be so good" Without a control we can't verify how things would have been had the other option held sway.

Despite my preference for revoke maybe the only way forward is to allow Leave to take place and just say " we told you so for ever after" The trouble with that iS mainly Remainers who will be left to see the carnage it produces.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

The trouble is that Cameron let this genie out of the bottle for party political reasons and it's not possible to get it back. The problem with revoke is that the Leavers will carry on saying "if only we had left things would be so good" Without a control we can't verify how things would have been had the other option held sway.

Despite my preference for revoke maybe the only way forward is to allow Leave to take place and just say " we told you so for ever after" The trouble with that iS mainly Remainers who will be left to see the carnage it produces.

That’s nonsense. Leaving will be catastrophic for jobs, food and medical supplies, and disastrous for the peace process in Ireland.

Personally I don’t care about the sensibilities of the poor deprived Leave voters because the truth is they won’t benefit from leaving any more than Remainers will. I do agree it will be hard, but reuniting the country will be easier once we’re free from Tory austerity. That was what many Leave voters were protesting about, after all.

 

[TheSecondStain]

That’s nonsense. Leaving will be catastrophic for jobs, food and medical supplies, and disastrous for the peace process in Ireland.

Personally I don’t care about the sensibilities of the poor deprived Leave voters because the truth is they won’t benefit from leaving any more than Remainers will. I do agree it will be hard, but reuniting the country will be easier once we’re free from Tory austerity. That was what many Leave voters were protesting about, after all.

That's pretty much ALL they were voting against, but were persuaded to shift the blame offshore. It's always the case, especially with Tories. Shift the blame elsewhere. Can't get a job? Blame immigrants. Don't feel represented? Blame the EU. Feel like you're being ripped off? Once again, blame the EU. Feel like your culture is being diluted? Blame guess who? And it is 100% hogwash.
I go back to the government experts and analysts. These are the very people who specialise in being experts in this field - and they try to be as impartial as possible. And in 2016, they said, for goodness sake, don't be stupid enough to vote Leave. The situation hasn't changed at all for that expert opinion to be different. Except that the EU are slowly coming to the conclusion that the UK is a boil that they may prefer to lance right now. I hope they can hang in there and continue to represent what's best for the UK and Europe, and take into account that the majority of Europeans want to stay together. Politics change, but the European vision has always been the same - bringing nations together. I am for that vision.

 

[swanseaandproud]

The advisory referendum in 2016 was so close with the amount of votes that it was obvious that neither side actually won enough of a % to seriously carry it through. Parliament are at fault for allowing both sides of the argument to come out with lies and over exaggeration about things that has split the country more than the advisory vote did and it was an advisory vote what anyone says. All what is happening is it will cost billions that the people will be saddled with for decades and that is not a good prospect for our youngsters who will bare the brunt of paying for Brexit......We are far to into it now and it cant be sorted unless parliament come together and make a decision to ether allow the public vote or scrap Brexit altogether as the longer it goes on the weaker the UK will become and the Euro will be worth more than the £.

 

[Farked19]

I personally know of at least foyer people who voted Leave just to F*** Cameron. If I know four there must have been enough up and down the country to have swung it.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

The UK would not be complying with its own constitutional requirements if Johnson breaks the Benn Act and refuses to ask for an extension. In that situation the ECJ could suspend Article 50.

https://infacts.org/if-pm-breaks-law-ecj-could-hold-brexit/

 

[TheSecondStain]

More than a million people in Bolivia are demonstrating their demand for democracy. Is it featuring on your mainstream news?

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[San Tejón]

A consultant cardiologist has stated the following, about a No Deal Brexit, with regards to the predicted impact on receiving medication from abroad.
“Purely from a medical point of view, a No Deal Brexit would be little short of a disaster, but from the country’s point of view it is an act of ritual suicide”.

It is also being claimed that the government is keeping a secret list of the medication most likely to be a problem, to prevent panic. More likely keeping it quiet so that they won’t come under closer scrutiny and have to explain why they still want to put people’s lives at risk.

 

[fatletiss]

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[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

If Brexit goes through then I am a goner.

No cheering or changing from Remainers to Brexiteers please.