Off Topic Politics Thread

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Farked19 said:
No politician is perfect. My own view is that Blair was conned into his actions by deliberately false information provided by the security services, quite likely in cahoots with the CIA. Anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of how these people operate will find that not too fantastical a suspicion.
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No. It came from the top. The CIA was skeptical about WMD yellowcake uranium purchases and all that and told the administration. Bush ignored them and leaked suspected forged documents to the press.

Blair was in a bind. Your Intelligence was telling him it might be true. The NYT was publishing stories talking about. Bush was a key ally, telling him it was true. You can’t piss off the US,and Blair did not think the US was that corrupt that they’d just lie to him about something like this.

Blair was a bit of a milquetoast and too trusting but he was in a bind and had a tough decision to make and I think he did his best.

I have always simultaneously felt like Blair has been too harshly treated by British citizens, while at the same time respecting them for not tolerating war. The guy got people killed.

But here in the US, people continued to support Bush, then they blamed the liberal media for not catching the lies rather than the liar. And the Democrats for voting for war instead of the Republicans who were really pushing it and stacking the deck by lying. And then they elected Trump.

I feel the same about Trudeau in Canada. I’m like, “He’s going to lose the election? For that ****?” I’d love to have Trudeau as President. If Trump did what Trudeau did, it not only wouldn’t hurt him, his popularity would actually rise.
 
If we need another referendum fair enough lets bloody have one...............Why aren't we given the chance to vote on these so called deals but for goodness sake let's do something positive leave/stay what ever it is lets do it and start to get this country back on its feet...........
 
I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
I feel the same about Trudeau in Canada. I’m like, “He’s going to lose the election? For that ****?” I’d love to have Trudeau as President. If Trump did what Trudeau did, it not only wouldn’t hurt him, his popularity would actually rise.
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Our biggest problem is that we have three viable left-of-centre parties, and one viable right-of-centre option (plus one new crazy-pants party whose candidates all seem to be right-wing talk show hosts, which remains small). The Liberals, NDP and Greens are forecast to take about 55% between them, with the Quebec nationalist Bloc Quebecois getting 5-6%. That leaves right-of-centre parties with 35-40% of the vote, but if 35% of that goes to the Conservatives, they'll probably have the largest caucus in the next Parliament.
 
Farked19 said:
I don't know anyone who voted Remain who "Just wants it done" . This is just another example of repeating a lie often enough that it gets believed. The same as the lie that the majority of people still want to leave. All the polls point to it now being around 54/46 in favour of Remain. You can be sure if it was the other way round we would be having a second referendum to settle it once and for all.
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I know we've moved on since my post, to which this was a response. However, I just have to say if you haven't met remainers who now say "Let's get on with it and leave" then you are describing your experience, but it doesn't match with mine.

I stand accused in your post of "repeating a lie". I only wish this were the case. I was with a group of people at an event only last week. I knew each and every one was a remainer, yet a significant group - a minority it's true - were saying they'd had enough and just wanted it to happen. One person even said, "Bring it on. Let the shelves be empty, then maybe the twats will believe it."

So Farked19, I don't lie. I'm describing my experience, and you yours.
 
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Norvern: If that is indeed the case then we have the ideal solution to the Brexit mess. It's a second referendum. Because if "let's just get it done" is the mantra that has actual substance rather than being another Boris lie then Leave will win. I can see how some on the hard left might want it to happen with all the potential for damaging fallout. The only question I would ask is this : Why have ten consecutive polls found Remain majorities?
 
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One of yer Norvern Saints said:
I know we've moved on since my post, to which this was a response. However, I just have to say if you haven't met remainers who now say "Let's get on with it and leave" then you are describing your experience, but it doesn't match with mine.

I stand accused in your post of "repeating a lie". I only wish this were the case. I was with a group of people at an event only last week. I knew each and every one was a remainer, yet a significant group - a minority it's true - were saying they'd had enough and just wanted it to happen. One person even said, "Bring it on. Let the shelves be empty, then maybe the twats will believe it."

So Farked19, I don't lie. I'm describing my experience, and you yours.
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Yes I’ve talked to people who say stuff like that. It’s not really surprising, given the relentless, never-ending stream of propaganda from most of the press and all of TV including the BBC about the “will of the people”.

Expect more of the same if we ever get to a second referendum, which of course will be “undemocratic”.
 
ChilcoSaint said:
Yes I’ve talked to people who say stuff like that. It’s not really surprising, given the relentless, never-ending stream of propaganda from most of the press and all of TV including the BBC about the “will of the people”.

Expect more of the same if we ever get to a second referendum, which of course will be “undemocratic”.
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Aren't you calling the first one "undemocratic"?..........So what would be wrong with leavers calling a second one "undemocratic" should they lose..........If there is categoric proof that the first one was illegal as some allege.........Why haven't they taken the government to court? Surely as easy as it was for the parliament shutdown? Or is it all propaganda....just wishful thinking....just a smudge campaign to persuade those that voted leave it was false.................Sorry guys......While I have some sympathy....and strangely I genuinely do....but to say I didn't consider my children's future or anybody else's is crap and beyond comprehension. Mind you they have made it worse by all this messing around one way or tother. We should have been well on the recovery by now had we left originally. Either Way lets get this over and done with. Let's begin to put this country back on its feet in or out of the EU.
 
Beddytare said:
Aren't you calling the first one "undemocratic"?..........So what would be wrong with leavers calling a second one "undemocratic" should they lose..........If there is categoric proof that the first one was illegal as some allege.........Why haven't they taken the government to court? Surely as easy as it was for the parliament shutdown? Or is it all propaganda....just wishful thinking....just a smudge campaign to persuade those that voted leave it was false.................Sorry guys......While I have some sympathy....and strangely I genuinely do....but to say I didn't consider my children's future or anybody else's is crap and beyond comprehension. Mind you they have made it worse by all this messing around one way or tother. We should have been well on the recovery by now had we left originally. Either Way lets get this over and done with. Let's begin to put this country back on its feet in or out of the EU.
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Yes there is categoric proof that the 2016 referendum was illegal. The Electoral Commission said that it would have been declared null and void if it hadn’t been just an advisory poll. The fact that Parliament decided to act upon an illegal referendum was another matter entirely, and the fact that there was a huge majority for triggering Article 50 makes it pretty much impossible for “they”, whoever “they” are, to challenge it in court. But that does give you the mechanism for the second referendum though, make it a binding one, so any irregularities by either side can be dealt with.
 
Beddytare said:
Aren't you calling the first one "undemocratic"?..........So what would be wrong with leavers calling a second one "undemocratic" should they lose..........If there is categoric proof that the first one was illegal as some allege.........Why haven't they taken the government to court? Surely as easy as it was for the parliament shutdown? Or is it all propaganda....just wishful thinking....just a smudge campaign to persuade those that voted leave it was false.................Sorry guys......While I have some sympathy....and strangely I genuinely do....but to say I didn't consider my children's future or anybody else's is crap and beyond comprehension. Mind you they have made it worse by all this messing around one way or tother. We should have been well on the recovery by now had we left originally. Either Way lets get this over and done with. Let's begin to put this country back on its feet in or out of the EU.
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1: If we don't have a deal, how do we reconcile crashing out of the EU with somehow not breaking the GFA?
2: If no existing deals can be agreed on by parliament, how do we prevent no deal, and therefore problem 1?
3: Blackmailing all parties and members to go along with the only deal currently on the table (Boris's fantasy purely designed to achieve failure of negotiation and hence no deal) or accept no deal is an afront against democracy,
4: It is only this government that doesn't see revoking Art50 as a possible option. In order to have a GE and potentially change government, a delay to Brexit day is required hence rushing to "get this over with" is effectively trying to block another GE that can actually end the problem in time. I liken the expression in bold to euthanasia rather than trying to find a cure.
 
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