Off Topic Politics Thread

[ChilcoSaint]

I think everyone's over thinking this. 5 years ago I never heard anyone,ever, discuss membership of the EU. Some people went to Europe on holiday, some people moved there for a bit of sun. Some people worked there. Some people had their plumbing done at a reasonable rate. Most people had never been there or to London or Southampton. Then, a few people, who had enough money, thought they could make some more (or were afraid they might lose some) and manipulated the above and succeeded. Now us plebs are arguing whilst they are smurking.

Yes, that’s pretty much it in a nutshell. We never mentioned the EU because its effect on our lives was passive and benevolent, and all the bad stuff we hear nowadays is practically all untrue.
Go to the Irish border, though, and the people there will undoubtedly have a much more positive view, because the whole of their peaceful existence for the last 20 years is founded on the role played by the EU.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I think we need to be careful about thinking we know what other people's interests are. We assume it's mainly financial, or at least strongly fiscally related. But what if their interest something based more on morality and culture? And they feel so strongly about it and have reached a level of desperation that they're effectively going all-in and do not care anymore about niceties like political process, or their own short-term fiscal interests?

I don't think there's a big conspiracy here. I think the world has moved on from a certain culture in both of our countries, and people are desperate to bring that culture back. Some of them are desperate enough to believe whatever certain leaders tell them, some of them don't care that their leaders are **** because they feel (probably correctly) like every other alternative is even worse for them. And for some, the cruelty is the point. They're fully aware that they're at war and they can only win with dirty/guerilla tactics and scorched Earth policies.

I think you're underestimating the upper classes, and underestimating how far people will go for money.

I really believe it's as simple as a group of extremely wealthy people, using the same tactics as the others mentioned, to get ahead.

It has been known for hundreds of years how easily manipulated the human being is.

It used to be religion that controlled the masses, but that is slowly dying. They have to invent new ways now.

 

[Beddy]

Guys I maybe a leaver and I have my own reasons. However what has happened over the last 3 and a bit years is destroying this country. That none of us surely wanted. I cannot understand why if parliament can’t agree why they haven’t put something to the people again. We have a negotiated deal so why on earth are we allowing 10 DUP members to dictate the whole of the uks policy...........surely we have time to improve that as time goes on? Another vote should have perhaps been put forward by now to either except what’s on the table or to leave or to stay. What’s more it should be binding.

 

[Tupac]

Guys I maybe a leaver and I have my own reasons. However what has happened over the last 3 and a bit years is destroying this country. That none of us surely wanted. I cannot understand why if parliament can’t agree why they haven’t put something to the people again. We have a negotiated deal so why on earth are we allowing 10 DUP members to dictate the whole of the uks policy...........surely we have time to improve that as time goes on? Another vote should have perhaps been put forward by now to either except what’s on the table or to leave or to stay. What’s more it should be binding.

When you voted Leave, didn’t you consider that doing so might destroy the UK?

 

[SaintinSerbia]

Another vote should have perhaps been put forward by now to either except what’s on the table or to leave or to stay. What’s more it should be binding.

think we'd be happy with that but to keep saying that you have personal reasons for wanting to leave, nearly every post, and refusing to discuss them with the reasoned people on this forum is ... odd, why keep saying it if you don't actually want to talk about it?

 

[Beddy]

When you voted Leave, didn’t you consider that doing so might destroy the UK?

No I still don’t think it will Be the worst thing in the long run. It has been made worse by all the mucking about. Nobody could have possibly known we would have this kind of problem going on 3 and a bit years no matter how well informed. As far as I can see May got a compromise which everyone is ignoring.

 

[Tupac]

No I still don’t think it will Be the worst thing in the long run. It has been made worse by all the mucking about. Nobody could have possibly none we would have this kind of problem going on 3 and a bit years no matter how well informed. As far as I can see May got a compromise which everyone is ignoring.

Well, Greenland left the EU in 1985, three years after a referendum in 1982. Do you really think it would take the UK less time than that? I’ve always thought it would take 10 years at a minimum.

 

[Beddy]

Well, Greenland left the EU in 1985, three years after a referendum in 1982. Do you really think it would take the UK less time than that? I’ve always thought it would take 10 years at a minimum.

Really .........Ok fair enough

 

[Beddy]

think we'd be happy with that but to keep saying that you have personal reasons for wanting to leave, nearly every post, and refusing to discuss them with the reasoned people on this forum is ... odd, why keep saying it if you don't actually want to talk about it?

I have said all along I would not discuss my reason but some need reminding. Is that a problem for you?

 

[VocalMinority]

Guys I maybe a leaver and I have my own reasons. However what has happened over the last 3 and a bit years is destroying this country. That none of us surely wanted. I cannot understand why if parliament can’t agree why they haven’t put something to the people again. We have a negotiated deal so why on earth are we allowing 10 DUP members to dictate the whole of the uks policy...........surely we have time to improve that as time goes on? Another vote should have perhaps been put forward by now to either except what’s on the table or to leave or to stay. What’s more it should be binding.

I agree with you except the binding part. Democracy can't be binding or its not democracy. It needs to be able to change with changes in public opinion. Its what separates a democracy from fascism or an elective monarchy.

And i include us being able to leave even if we vote to stay in that.

edit: of course there won't really be any time for change if we vote on what is already on the table. that can all be implemented pretty quickly.

 

[TheSecondStain]

I have said all along I would not discuss my reason but some need reminding. Is that a problem for you?

As you are a Leaver, even after all the evidence presented, I would like you to take time to tell us why we should leave the EU. You can put aside the "because we voted for it" excuse because that has been proven to be manipulated BS, and even if it was legitimate the margin is so narrow that the opinion was overturned within weeks. So the EU vote turned out to be a snapshot of national opinion. Nothing to change the whole direction of the UK ship for.

But please, do give us some real reasons, that we can all get on board with, for leaving the EU. Not personal ones.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

Why we should leave the EU:

a few years back, when I was working for a Welsh Automotive components company we got a contract with Opel. We flew to Frankfurt and were greeted by the German engineers. How did you fly here? asked one. Luftwaffe! replied the aging mechanical engineer. They kept us in the conference room all day without lunch.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

I have said all along I would not discuss my reason but some need reminding. Is that a problem for you?

not if you stop mentioning it!

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Why we should leave the EU:

a few years back, when I was working for a Welsh Automotive components company we got a contract with Opel. We flew to Frankfurt and were greeted by the German engineers. How did you fly here? asked one. Luftwaffe! replied the aging mechanical engineer. They kept us in the conference room all day without lunch.

Hmmm. I know you’re not being serious, but I’m sure everyone could relate some personal insult, mishap, or even tragedy that’s down to misunderstandings between people of different cultural backgrounds. When things like that happen, we have a choice between making an effort to overcome those differences, or making them a reason to dislike, or even hate, the other party. The Second World War left the whole world, but the European mainland in particular, devastated beyond recognition, just as the First World War had 20-odd years before.

The choice of countries like Germany, or the Western part at least, France, Italy and so on, was between letting that devastation fester over the years into a reason to start World War 3, or co-operating with each other to build something that would avoid the need for war, ever again. We became part of that project in 1972 and have grown as a nation ever since. The Irish Troubles were ENDED because of the way Northern Ireland could simultaneously be part of the UK and effectively united with the Republic.

And now we are poised to throw the whole ****ing thing away, and for no discernible reason or benefit to the vast majority of us.

 

[San Tejón]

As you are a Leaver, even after all the evidence presented, I would like you to take time to tell us why we should leave the EU. You can put aside the "because we voted for it" excuse because that has been proven to be manipulated BS, and even if it was legitimate the margin is so narrow that the opinion was overturned within weeks. So the EU vote turned out to be a snapshot of national opinion. Nothing to change the whole direction of the UK ship for.

But please, do give us some real reasons, that we can all get on board with, for leaving the EU. Not personal ones.

“So the EU vote turned out to be a snapshot of national opinion.”

But isn’t that exactly what the vote was supposed to be? Advisory. A vote to see what the general feeling was, with nothing set down to say that it would be acted on?

 

[TheSecondStain]

“So the EU vote turned out to be a snapshot of national opinion.”

But isn’t that exactly what the vote was supposed to be? Advisory. A vote to see what the general feeling was, with nothing set down to say that it would be acted on?

With all the to-ing and fro-ing since the vote in 2016, I can't remember whether it was advisory or whether it was binding. I remember that the 1970's referendum vote was advisory, although the PM at the time said he would abide by the vote anyway [I think he was confident of the result]. I always thought every referendum was advisory.

 

[San Tejón]

Getting sick of seeing taxpayers money being wasted on Prime time tv adverts, especially as Buffoon won’t get a deal and it would be illegal to leave without one.

 

[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and May are all remainers and have held the highest office in the land but our future is instead dictated to by a bunch of northern bigots and racists who voted leave because they fell for the biggest con trick in British political history. FFS even Thatcher would have been a remainer.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

Hmmm. I know you’re not being serious, but I’m sure everyone could relate some personal insult, mishap, or even tragedy that’s down to misunderstandings between people of different cultural backgrounds. When things like that happen, we have a choice between making an effort to overcome those differences, or making them a reason to dislike, or even hate, the other party. The Second World War left the whole world, but the European mainland in particular, devastated beyond recognition, just as the First World War had 20-odd years before.

The choice of countries like Germany, or the Western part at least, France, Italy and so on, was between letting that devastation fester over the years into a reason to start World War 3, or co-operating with each other to build something that would avoid the need for war, ever again. We became part of that project in 1972 and have grown as a nation ever since. The Irish Troubles were ENDED because of the way Northern Ireland could simultaneously be part of the UK and effectively united with the Republic.

And now we are poised to throw the whole ****ing thing away, and for no discernible reason or benefit to the vast majority of us.

well said (obviously I wasn't being serious, this man has a history of getting things nearly right. Luftwaffe/LuftHansa was one. The world's your lobster was another and I just can't say oyster anymore)

 

[TheSecondStain]

Just to add, that when I said "snapshot", I realise that every vote is a snapshot. However, what I was getting at was that public opinion began to change within days. If the vote had been retaken a week later the result would have been reversed - the original result was that tenuous. A few weeks later it would have been soundly beaten. There has been a short point in time since where it has become the majority view again, but certainly not now.