Off Topic Politics Thread

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I can appreciate why the EU is such a dilemma for Labour because it effectively is a trading block which strives to represent the interests of businesses within Europe and often to the detriment to the people. However, I think that , despite it's massive flaws and out-of-proportion bureaucracy , I wish Labour had campaigned to remain within the EU and work with other European socialist parties to radically transform what it represents. I have personally heard the likes of the great Tony Benn criticise the EU yet no one has ever seemed to consider that a Socialist block within the EU could use the structures within to create a Internationalist future for Europe which, perhaps, would fulfil the kind of objectives once mooted by the likes of Trotsky. All European countries should work amongst each other to resolve factional differences and mitigate countries such as Germany economically bullying other countries like Greece. The argument has always been that under EU legislation, Labour's proposals to nationalise parts of the industry would be deemed illegal however I did read recently that this is not the case.

It always strikes me a weird that capitalists seem to ridicule socialism as a "failure" when a true, unfettered version of socialism where everyone works for the benefit of others has never really been allowed to flourish. Every attempt at socialism has largely either been undermined by the workings of countries like the US as has been the case in South America or betrayed by it's own politicians such as the case in the USSR where Stalin effectively replaced it with a totalitarian regime. I really think that we will never seen "true" socialism until the point that it is embraced by forward thinking and more "liberal" minded countries such as in the developed West of Europe. I just think that the Labour Party as it currently exists needs to get elected to demonstrate, once and for all, that Socialism can work.

I admire Jeremy and think that he has offered a "new way of doing politics" yet the comment about him doing the knitting is not unfair. He has not been inspiring and just think that Labour might do better with a younger but similarly sincere politician who could inspire the current generation. It is weird how Labour Party membership has been invigorated by Corbyn and how Momentum has made the Party far more effective and focussed yet now in roads have been made to the floating voter. I just think that labour have a very strong message to deliver yet they seem unable to get it out. I would love them to liaise with the Greens and make climate change a focal point in addition to making a strong case for compassionate, left-wing politics. I am surprised that so little attempt has been made by Labour to link capitalism with climate change. All the balls have been teed up for Labour to put the Tories to the sword but it is frustrating that they have not been able to put the ball in the net.
 
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Ian Thumwood said:
I can appreciate why the EU is such a dilemma for Labour because it effectively is a trading block which strives to represent the interests of businesses within Europe and often to the detriment to the people. However, I think that , despite it's massive flaws and out-of-proportion bureaucracy , I wish Labour had campaigned to remain within the EU and work with other European socialist parties to radically transform what it represents. I have personally heard the likes of the great Tony Benn criticise the EU yet no one has ever seemed to consider that a Socialist block within the EU could use the structures within to create a Internationalist future for Europe which, perhaps, would fulfil the kind of objectives once mooted by the likes of Trotsky. All European countries should work amongst each other to resolve factional differences and mitigate countries such as Germany economically bullying other countries like Greece. The argument has always been that under EU legislation, Labour's proposals to nationalise parts of the industry would be deemed illegal however I did read recently that this is not the case.

It always strikes me a weird that capitalists seem to ridicule socialism as a "failure" when a true, unfettered version of socialism where everyone works for the benefit of others has never really been allowed to flourish. Every attempt at socialism has largely either been undermined by the workings of countries like the US as has been the case in South America or betrayed by it's own politicians such as the case in the USSR where Stalin effectively replaced it with a totalitarian regime. I really think that we will never seen "true" socialism until the point that it is embraced by forward thinking and more "liberal" minded countries such as in the developed West of Europe. I just think that the Labour Party as it currently exists needs to get elected to demonstrate, once and for all, that Socialism can work.

I admire Jeremy and think that he has offered a "new way of doing politics" yet the comment about him doing the knitting is not unfair. He has not been inspiring and just think that Labour might do better with a younger but similarly sincere politician who could inspire the current generation. It is weird how Labour Party membership has been invigorated by Corbyn and how Momentum has made the Party far more effective and focussed yet now in roads have been made to the floating voter. I just think that labour have a very strong message to deliver yet they seem unable to get it out. I would love them to liaise with the Greens and make climate change a focal point in addition to making a strong case for compassionate, left-wing politics. I am surprised that so little attempt has been made by Labour to link capitalism with climate change. All the balls have been teed up for Labour to put the Tories to the sword but it is frustrating that they have not been able to put the ball in the net.
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In your last paragraph, you are certainly not the only one to think this way Ian. For all Labour's undoubted appeal to ordinary people, plus having the present serving Govt being so obviously incompetent,going as far back as Cameron, they seem to waste opportunity after opportunity to take the initiative for the overall good. I can only conclude that Jeremy just doesn't have it in him. Genuine, intelligent bloke, and conviction politician, I have no doubt. While there are pea-brains running the country.
 
Ian Thumwood said:
I can appreciate why the EU is such a dilemma for Labour because it effectively is a trading block which strives to represent the interests of businesses within Europe and often to the detriment to the people. However, I think that , despite it's massive flaws and out-of-proportion bureaucracy , I wish Labour had campaigned to remain within the EU and work with other European socialist parties to radically transform what it represents. I have personally heard the likes of the great Tony Benn criticise the EU yet no one has ever seemed to consider that a Socialist block within the EU could use the structures within to create a Internationalist future for Europe which, perhaps, would fulfil the kind of objectives once mooted by the likes of Trotsky. All European countries should work amongst each other to resolve factional differences and mitigate countries such as Germany economically bullying other countries like Greece. The argument has always been that under EU legislation, Labour's proposals to nationalise parts of the industry would be deemed illegal however I did read recently that this is not the case.

It always strikes me a weird that capitalists seem to ridicule socialism as a "failure" when a true, unfettered version of socialism where everyone works for the benefit of others has never really been allowed to flourish. Every attempt at socialism has largely either been undermined by the workings of countries like the US as has been the case in South America or betrayed by it's own politicians such as the case in the USSR where Stalin effectively replaced it with a totalitarian regime. I really think that we will never seen "true" socialism until the point that it is embraced by forward thinking and more "liberal" minded countries such as in the developed West of Europe. I just think that the Labour Party as it currently exists needs to get elected to demonstrate, once and for all, that Socialism can work.

I admire Jeremy and think that he has offered a "new way of doing politics" yet the comment about him doing the knitting is not unfair. He has not been inspiring and just think that Labour might do better with a younger but similarly sincere politician who could inspire the current generation. It is weird how Labour Party membership has been invigorated by Corbyn and how Momentum has made the Party far more effective and focussed yet now in roads have been made to the floating voter. I just think that labour have a very strong message to deliver yet they seem unable to get it out. I would love them to liaise with the Greens and make climate change a focal point in addition to making a strong case for compassionate, left-wing politics. I am surprised that so little attempt has been made by Labour to link capitalism with climate change. All the balls have been teed up for Labour to put the Tories to the sword but it is frustrating that they have not been able to put the ball in the net.
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I think Corbyn has been a victim of his own integrity.
From the beginning he said that the EU Leave/Remain vote would be respected, but then tried to quantify it at the Labour conference with his red lines, as in any deal must protect certain things.
He has done that, but has lost sight of the fact that Labour have been dropping in the polls, as a result of his refusal to back a second referendum, remain or rescinding article 50.
He has spent the last 5 or so years, holding the Tories to account for the many u turns they have performed, so I kind of get why he can’t or doesn’t want to do the same.
But as people like Major have said, the responsibility of the MPs is to do what is best for the country, even if it contradicts what many people, including themselves, want.
Hopefully he will get on board sooner, rather than later, to claw back some of the voters who voted for the Lib Dems in the Euro Election, otherwise it will be a great opportunity missed.
 
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TheSecondStain said:
In your last paragraph, you are certainly not the only one to think this way Ian. For all Labour's undoubted appeal to ordinary people, plus having the present serving Govt being so obviously incompetent,going as far back as Cameron, they seem to waste opportunity after opportunity to take the initiative for the overall good. I can only conclude that Jeremy just doesn't have it in him. Genuine, intelligent bloke, and conviction politician, I have no doubt. While there are pea-brains running the country.
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I feel JC is playing a cool game. He senses that Johnson will fall upon his sword sooner a later, (an arrogant prick does not stay in the top job for long) as the October deadline approaches. And the Tories will do the job for him.
 
St Badger said:
I think Corbyn has been a victim of his own integrity.
From the beginning he said that the EU Leave/Remain vote would be respected, but then tried to quantify it at the Labour conference with his red lines, as in any deal must protect certain things.
He has done that, but has lost sight of the fact that Labour have been dropping in the polls, as a result of his refusal to back a second referendum, remain or rescinding article 50.
He has spent the last 5 or so years, holding the Tories to account for the many u turns they have performed, so I kind of get why he can’t or doesn’t want to do the same.
But as people like Major have said, the responsibility of the MPs is to do what is best for the country, even if it contradicts what many people want.
Hopefully he will get on board sooner, rather than later, to claw back some of the voters who voted for the Lib Dems in the Euro Election, otherwise it will be a great opportunity missed.
Click to expand...
Exactly right Badge. The problem has always been the contradiction between following a democratic mandate, albeit a narrow one, while trying to protect the interests of the nation, and particularly the Leave-voting natural Labour electorate. At the end of the day, it’s impossible. Leaving the EU is an objective dreamed up and idealised by a minuscule group of people who want out of the new EU tax laws, and which actually benefits no one else.

The problem is convincing Leave voters who have bought into the concept with no greater degree of rational thought than choosing a football team to support. If Corbyn can convince them, he deserves to be PM for the next 20 years.
 
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Ian Thumwood said:
I can appreciate why the EU is such a dilemma for Labour because it effectively is a trading block which strives to represent the interests of businesses within Europe and often to the detriment to the people. However, I think that , despite it's massive flaws and out-of-proportion bureaucracy , I wish Labour had campaigned to remain within the EU and work with other European socialist parties to radically transform what it represents. I have personally heard the likes of the great Tony Benn criticise the EU yet no one has ever seemed to consider that a Socialist block within the EU could use the structures within to create a Internationalist future for Europe which, perhaps, would fulfil the kind of objectives once mooted by the likes of Trotsky. All European countries should work amongst each other to resolve factional differences and mitigate countries such as Germany economically bullying other countries like Greece. The argument has always been that under EU legislation, Labour's proposals to nationalise parts of the industry would be deemed illegal however I did read recently that this is not the case.

It always strikes me a weird that capitalists seem to ridicule socialism as a "failure" when a true, unfettered version of socialism where everyone works for the benefit of others has never really been allowed to flourish. Every attempt at socialism has largely either been undermined by the workings of countries like the US as has been the case in South America or betrayed by it's own politicians such as the case in the USSR where Stalin effectively replaced it with a totalitarian regime. I really think that we will never seen "true" socialism until the point that it is embraced by forward thinking and more "liberal" minded countries such as in the developed West of Europe. I just think that the Labour Party as it currently exists needs to get elected to demonstrate, once and for all, that Socialism can work.

I admire Jeremy and think that he has offered a "new way of doing politics" yet the comment about him doing the knitting is not unfair. He has not been inspiring and just think that Labour might do better with a younger but similarly sincere politician who could inspire the current generation. It is weird how Labour Party membership has been invigorated by Corbyn and how Momentum has made the Party far more effective and focussed yet now in roads have been made to the floating voter. I just think that labour have a very strong message to deliver yet they seem unable to get it out. I would love them to liaise with the Greens and make climate change a focal point in addition to making a strong case for compassionate, left-wing politics. I am surprised that so little attempt has been made by Labour to link capitalism with climate change. All the balls have been teed up for Labour to put the Tories to the sword but it is frustrating that they have not been able to put the ball in the net.
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As we saw pre 1997, the people that put the Tories to the sword will be the Conservative media. When that happens we will see another Labour Government. Or, another Harold Wilson!!!
 
TheSecondStain said:
Well, I hope you're right, Ides.
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So do I SS!!!! By October, I am sure the senior civil servants will have given Bunter a detailed account of what is likely to happen in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit. He will see sterling tumble, the stock market likewise and panic beginning to set in. The EU negotiations are done and dusted so he either signs Madame May´s deal or revokes Article 50. I am sure even he is not foolish enough to jump off the Cliff Edge.

So assuming he goes for Madame May´s deal, (Labour should abstain on voting altogether on this), he is toast!! Next leader Penny Mordaunt, deputy Hunt.
 
The Ides of March said:
So do I SS!!!! By October, I am sure the senior civil servants will have given Bunter a detailed account of what is likely to happen in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit. He will see sterling tumble, the stock market likewise and panic beginning to set in. The EU negotiations are done and dusted so he either signs Madame May´s deal or revokes Article 50. I am sure even he is not foolish enough to jump off the Cliff Edge.

So assuming he goes for Madame May´s deal, (Labour should abstain on voting altogether on this), he is toast!! Next leader Penny Mordaunt, deputy Hunt.
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I know the EU said that their negotiations were done. I just hope they stick to it. I don't want the buffoon gaining a millimetre of progress on the EU, just so that he can claim he got a better deal. I want him to own his words and stupidity. He can go up in my estimation if he sees that the obvious thing to do is revoke Article 50 - because it is. Fat chance of that happening though.
 
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St Godders said:
I so wish but sadly we no longer have politicians of great intellect or integrity.
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Although I am not a Tory, Hague had a certain amount of both that was totally lacking in Cameron and now Bunter. Maybe, it relates to the upbringing. Hague worked his way through the system, whilst Bunter and Piggy, two spoilt brats, had it on a plate.
 
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