Off Topic Politics Thread

[Missing Lambo]

Not sure where you get that from. Maggie was hounded out by cabinet members who knew she was a barrier to Monetary Union as well as Maastricht which was in the pipeline. Lawson had already resigned because there was pressure (from within the cabinet) to enter the ERM and Hurd was pushing Thatcher to approve ERM membership.

She was pretty weakened by other things at the end but it was her resistance to the "European Project" that did for her in the end.

In her books she wrote “The concept of Europe has always, I suspect, lent itself to a large measure of humbug. Not just national interests, but a great array of group and class interests happily disguising themselves beneath the mantle of synthetic European idealism. Thus we find an almost religious reverence for Europe accompanied by a high degree of distinctly materialistic chicanery and corruption.”

She also wrote in the same book that the “world should wake up and stop the creation of a European superstate”.

So I'm not so sure she "wouldn't have held that referendum." If she were in power in 2014/15 you think she wouldn't? I think she would have forced it on the Maastricht Treaty had she been PM still.

I do agree she would have "handbagged Farage" though. I don't think Farage would have been a thing had it not been for Blair.

Once again, Imps, I am grateful for your intervention/correction. I almost certainly over-stated Thatcher's European credentials. However, she would certainly have let sleeping dogs lie while ignoring the yapping of the far right.

While I will always lay the death of the trade union movement at the door of MT, other mad reforms of public services were down to those Tories that followed her and the so called "Labour Government" of 1997 onwards.

Taking the sword to the trade unions was populism at its best/worst. The press had done a decent job of creating the hate figure of the TUC and Maggie rode the wave. I do, however, think that she wouldn't have touched a proposed exit from the EU, even if it had simply been on pragmatic grounds.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

It works both ways is what I am saying. As much as there "may" be institutional racism still within the met there is a lot of talk from community leaders, bodies and political voices about what should happen when there is not much effort to address the mistrust which is stoked up as much from within the communities as from outside.

For all the talk of populism on other "wider" matters there is and has been a lot of it in smaller waves often on smaller issues within all sorts of different aspects where we have problems. Quite often it is in certain people's interests to make sure that divides are maintained or increased rather than any attempt made to reduce or eradicate them.

I'm not sure I understand what you are meaning by your statement to be honest. Of course one side will see themselves as "us" and vice versa.

If I am the police then police is "us". If I am a community member then the community is "us." That is how that works in that scenario. Not sure what you mean that "us" groups were being treated as "them." Whichever side you are on the other side is "them."

I mean that as the ones with the power it’s down to the police to lead by example on breaking down the us and them attitudes. You can’t blame a disempowered community for lacking trust

 

[ImpSaint]

Once again, Imps, I am grateful for your intervention/correction. I almost certainly over-stated Thatcher's European credentials. However, she would certainly have let sleeping dogs lie while ignoring the yapping of the far right.

The problem is that I would agree in the first half of her tenure that indeed she had full control and your above statement is correct. However in the latter half she became weakened and far from being able to ignore the yapping (of any direction) it was the far left of her party (Centrists Pro EU) that ended up hounding her out of the job. She couldn't ignore people at that point and they took every opportunity to further weaken her until they got her out.

May's trouble is that she is in that latter stage in terms of strength and was from day one because she is no Thatcher. And under current Tory "no confidence" rules it is now almost impossible to topple the leader of the party (in government) because of the vast size of the government payroll. Playing by the rules at the moment of the 317 Conservative MPs, 200 or so of them are on the government payroll and thus almost* guaranteed to vote for the PM. It is known as the "payroll vote."

*which showed that far from May achieving a victory in the leadership campaign, she failed to win virtually anyone that wasn't in a government job. Thatcher would have resigned with much less than that.

What we currently have is a system where anything that comes up the government creates new posts all the time. Of course that must be a good thing. A minister (and PPSs) for suicide. A minister (and PPSs) for women. The "payroll vote" increases each time these new positions are created and thus mean that even a useless leader has a "banker" vote and is very hard to get rid of.

The official figures for the payroll vote (Ministers, Whips and PPSs) after the 2015 GE was 142. May has created a vast amount more on top of that.

As a comparison Blair's 3 governments had 134 in 1997 and 135 in 2005.

The media were trying to say May did better than Thatcher did however Thatcher got 204 votes against 152 in her vote of confidence. Of that 204 she had a "payroll vote" of 123. She resigned.

May got 200 votes against 117. A better percentage - yes. However her payroll vote is in the 200 region (some say more but there is no info available or provided yet) so she gained no-one that was not on the payroll. A much worse result.

 

[ImpSaint]

Even the dishonest and unprincipled media in Britain will struggle to place the blame for this Brexit disaster at Corbyn’s door.

That won’t stop them trying of course - the Mail and the Sun have already tried to blame him for everything from international terrorism to the collapse of the Venezuelan economy - but it must surely be evident to most sentient people that the ****show that is Brexit is the Conservative Party’s gift to our unfortunate country.

Had to read poster name to see if this was Ide's satire for a moment.

Who has blamed Corbyn for International terrorism? No-one.
Who has blamed Corbyn for the collapse of the Venezuelan economy? No-one.

He has been constantly asked about his support and his actions. No-one has said he had a hand in either of the above.

 

[ImpSaint]

I mean that as the ones with the power it’s down to the police to lead by example on breaking down the us and them attitudes. You can’t blame a disempowered community for lacking trust

That would depend on whether that lack of trust was warranted. There are always benefits for some for keeping that sort of divide open. "safety in numbers" etc which for those who the police would be after is beneficial if they can stoke the rest of the community to add to their defensive numbers.

I also blame some leaders and politicians like David Lammy. Politicians like him could do so much good but instead they use subject matter they know they can abuse to push their own agendas....

Instead of utilising their positions to bridge the gaps and solve problems they jump on these issues, stoke the fires higher and the result id the problems get worse.

I used to find it strange how people on the estate I was living on would constantly talk about "pigs, filth" and much more derogatory names. If you did see a pair of police on patrol on the estate you could see people watching them as they were walking and you could feel how tense the situation was and what could happen.

If they actually had to go to an address to arrest someone they would always do it with a very heavy police presence because 2 or 3 of them would be useless as "community"* backed up their own. *Community normally younger generation. " riot vans to arrest 1 or 2 people and then you get all the social media stuff about the police being over the top, making fun of how many officers it takes to arrest one person etc. the reality being that 1 of those coppers could easily arrest the person they were after but they needed 20+ to make sure that they didn't get overpowered by community members trying to "protect their own."

Then of course you get moans about "why do they do it at 4am in the morning" which of course is so that there is a smaller chance of every young lad from the area getting in on the act. Even so every attempt to arrest 1 normally means 3 or 4 are taken away once "assaults on a police officer" have added to the "bust." And then this is put on social media too.

A couple of years ago there was a lad (22ish) that the police wanted because his partner had reported him for domestic violence. He "went on the run" but kept posting on facebook himself in front of various police stations. In the day, at night. This went on for several weeks. All of those that knew him on the estate cheered him on etc. when the police eventually got hold of him he was in a house 100 yards from his own and had been sofa hopping around the area for those few weeks. Again the police were attacked* when they went to arrest him. Not a riot or anything but pushing shoving, lots of verbals, spitting etc. Then there was a week or 2 of accusations flying around facebook r.e. "betraying our own."

The reality is that most of this hatred towards the police is from the younger generation. London might be a higer grade of problem with all the knife crime but it is across the country. When I was a kid if a policeman, teacher, figure of authority spoke to me I would be polite. If they told me to do something I would say yes sir. Yes there were the odd few that were rebels but these days it just seems that there is a huge problem with lack of respect.

I would suggest this is due to leaders or influencers that push the agenda rather than kids themselves deciding to be rebels.

 

[Archers Road]

Had to read poster name to see if this was Ide's satire for a moment.

Who has blamed Corbyn for International terrorism? No-one.
Who has blamed Corbyn for the collapse of the Venezuelan economy? No-one.

He has been constantly asked about his support and his actions. No-one has said he had a hand in either of the above.

If you missed the obvious implications in the coverage of The Mail and The Sun Imps, it's no surprise that you missed any hint of nuance in my post.

 

[Beddy]

Even the dishonest and unprincipled media in Britain will struggle to place the blame for this Brexit disaster at Corbyn’s door.

That won’t stop them trying of course - the Mail and the Sun have already tried to blame him for everything from international terrorism to the collapse of the Venezuelan economy - but it must surely be evident to most sentient people that the ****show that is Brexit is the Conservative Party’s gift to our unfortunate country.

The mess may be due to the mis-handling of the whole affair granted.........I would like to remind you though in previous elections under the Cameron Government it was in the Tory manifesto regarding the referendum. The Tories won handsomely. So I would argue that the people wanted the referendum. You have to admit the way the referendum went was the surprise ?? No one was expecting that, so were not ready for the out vote. Why May chose to have another Election is a mystery to all of us!
As for Corbyn....You think if he were to get into power things would be better ???......Not a chance...... I'm no Tory but I no Corbynite either....... he doesn't have a clue. He will drag us into the **** just as quick and probably break the country just as the party did nearly before. Oh and he'll blame the tories for everything as the party normally does........

 

[ImpSaint]

The mess may be due to the mis-handling of the whole affair granted.........I would like to remind you though in previous elections under the Cameron Government it was in the Tory manifesto regarding the referendum. The Tories won handsomely. So I would argue that the people wanted the referendum. You have to admit the way the referendum went was the surprise ?? No one was expecting that, so were not ready for the out vote. Why May chose to have another Election is a mystery to all of us!
As for Corbyn....You think if he were to get into power things would be better ???......Not a chance...... I'm no Tory but I no Corbynite either....... he doesn't have a clue. He will drag us into the **** just as quick and probably break the country just as the party did nearly before. Oh and he'll blame the tories for everything as the party normally does........

The problem wasn't May choosing another election. It was a no brainer on the polling figures. The problem was May unveiling a manifesto made by here and her advisors, unseen by the cabinet including stuff like the Dementia tax. If she had actually developed it with the cabinet they would have spotted that one straight away.

It was May herself and her control freakery that turned what should have been an easily increased majority into a hung parliament.

Even now the media present a "blame the Tories" story when polling, they don't report on, shows that actually May gets most of the blame.

Of course that is dependent on political leanings as well as Brexit leanings but the reality was that in 2017 the Tories were aiming for the leave vote. It should have been a major success seeing as that policy wiped out UKIP and the other parties splitting the leave vote however she completely messed it up.

 

[Archers Road]

The mess may be due to the mis-handling of the whole affair granted.........I would like to remind you though in previous elections under the Cameron Government it was in the Tory manifesto regarding the referendum. The Tories won handsomely. So I would argue that the people wanted the referendum. You have to admit the way the referendum went was the surprise ?? No one was expecting that, so were not ready for the out vote. Why May chose to have another Election is a mystery to all of us!
As for Corbyn....You think if he were to get into power things would be better ???......Not a chance...... I'm no Tory but I no Corbynite either....... he doesn't have a clue. He will drag us into the **** just as quick and probably break the country just as the party did nearly before. Oh and he'll blame the tories for everything as the party normally does........

I think the people were offered a fool's choice, on which no one was ever going to be able to deliver, purely as an exercise by David Cameron to try to unite his party. And since the unexpected result of the referendum, Theresa May too has put the interests of her party ahead of those of the country.

Do I think a Corbyn led Labour party would have made a better job of these negotiations? Absolutely yes, though Labour is itself divided between those like Corbyn, who want to accept the result of the referendum, and the majority of his MPs who would prefer a second referendum. Either way, this whole mess is entirely the Tories' doing.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

The way I see it is that this is not about party politics, it is about the country and all of our welfare and all of our future.

Unfortunately, it has become about in party fighting and party politics, with all sides trying to score points off each other. No winners in this I'm afraid.

 

[StJabbo]

The mess may be due to the mis-handling of the whole affair granted.........I would like to remind you though in previous elections under the Cameron Government it was in the Tory manifesto regarding the referendum. The Tories won handsomely. So I would argue that the people wanted the referendum. You have to admit the way the referendum went was the surprise ?? No one was expecting that, so were not ready for the out vote. Why May chose to have another Election is a mystery to all of us!
As for Corbyn....You think if he were to get into power things would be better ???......Not a chance...... I'm no Tory but I no Corbynite either....... he doesn't have a clue. He will drag us into the **** just as quick and probably break the country just as the party did nearly before. Oh and he'll blame the tories for everything as the party normally does........

I think the people were offered a fool's choice, on which no one was ever going to be able to deliver, purely as an exercise by David Cameron to try to unite his party. And since the unexpected result of the referendum, Theresa May too has put the interests of her party ahead of those of the country.

Do I think a Corbyn led Labour party would have made a better job of these negotiations? Absolutely yes, though Labour is itself divided between those like Corbyn, who want to accept the result of the referendum, and the majority of his MPs who would prefer a second referendum. Either way, this whole mess is entirely the Tories' doing.

Time to change the system, a simply majority for such a monumental decision is no way to go. Whoops, to late we're Donald.

 

[Archers Road]

The way I see it is that this is not about party politics, it is about the country and all of our welfare and all of our future.

Unfortunately, it has become about in party fighting and party politics, with all sides trying to score points off each other. No winners in this I'm afraid.

I think you could argue that Corbyn has responded in good faith to Theresa May's belated request for his input as Leader of the Opposition, but has been met with her characteristic selective deafness.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

Corbyn said the day after the referendum to the cameras live on the telly that article 50 should be triggered immediately. I'm not sure May needed to ask "labour" to put their view forward seeing as at that time Corbyn's clique had a complete stranglehold on Labour policy. That has only changed since the last conference where Labour have altered some policies, which still Corbyn's clique are trying to avoid.

Like stated above. The whole house, including those who many think are luvverly because they agree with them, are to blame for playing games. Doesn;t matter what side of the fence they are on. Virtually all of them playing games to try and present to the public an argument that is false.

Whether that be those who are trying to push for remain but don't have the balls to admit that is what they are doing or the extreme end of the ERG (not many in reality) who would vote down anything that isn't a full on no deal, through to the Labour "6 tests" which is designed just to stop anything the Tories came up with good or bad. There isn't anyone in there that is telling the truth.

It is like a glass house with the glass blacked out. As if they are oblivious that the public can see and hear everything they say. They think it is all about what 650 MPs agree on. That might be the reality of how things end up being decided but no-one is being honest about anything.

As for the comment above suggesting May is a puppet being pulled from elsewhere it couldn't be further from the truth. In fact it would be better if that were true but the reality is that she thinks she is Thatcher, thinks she can control things but ties herself in knots because she says one thing to one group and then just does what she wanted anyway. The whole perception that she is being held to ransom by the ERG is laughable. If that were true then she would actually have changed something, not just said what they wanted to hear and then ignored them.

She is on her own, refuses to listen (and I mean more than just sit and wait till someone has said what they are saying) and then thinks she can plough on because "she's in charge."

The reason for all the u-turns (and there have been loads, not just Brexit) is because like the "dementia tax" and like "Chequers" she stuns her own cabinet by announcing her policy without them even knowing about it. And then of course she has to alter it. Also because of the reason I gave above "say what people want to hear but then just carry on anyway" she constantly looks like she is u-turning when in fact she isn't. Completely the opposite. she said something that would be a u-turn but then just does what she originally said before.

throughout the Brexit process her actions have not matched her words. she has constantly read speeches out that tell her party (and everyone else) one thing yet months later she has not done anything like that. She has been in trouble several times during the process and come out with another speech to steady the ship but totally ignored what she has said in the speech. Pure lies.

People like Cooper and Soubry should stop saying "we respect the result of the referendum." Just be honest, Say you don;t respect it and say you will fight to remain. Just stop lying. Same with fools like Francois and Bridgeon. Stop saying you will support a deal when you just want to leave with no deal. Be honest.

I can't wait for the next GE. I think it will be the most nail biting, nervously exciting GE of my lifetime. No idea how much damage to the LibLabCon there will be. No idea if there will be any damage with people just still voting for one of the big 3.

And of course no idea what fringe parties might come through or new parties emerge. It could be refreshing but equally it could be disastrous.

And all because politicians in the modern era could not learn that the public are becoming more and more aware (and annoyed) by all the lies.

they should just be honest, "I will vote against any Brexit." or "I will vote against anything that isn't no deal." We would have seen a swathe of politicians kicked out in the 2017 election if they were honest. Could have gone either way............

.........although on FPTP and leave (with honesty) the leave vote would have had much more of an impact. That's not to say it would have benefited the Tories because at the time Labour were still hedging their bets and telling their heartland seats they fully backed Brexit.

There's a lot I agree with you in this script. Especially the 'we respect the result but....' people! I agree too that Mrs May has made some poor decisions, the election, the trigger timing etc., but I do have a great deal of sympathy for her in that as you rightly point out the H of C have made a bad situation even worse. I've lost count on how many 'options' ways through' etc have been or still being devised, so trying to satisfy any reasonable majority of the MP's is pretty near impossible. As others have correctly pointed out we have a 'remain' Parliament and a 'leave' populace vote. If anything the odds of getting something over the line now may have improved slightly but there is no-one there yet, in my view, more capable at present of bringing about a more cohesive approach than her, and I say that knowing full well that much of the present dilemma need not have happened if the aforementioned poor decisions had been much more wise.

As a former and wise PM once said, 'events dear boy events' (determine/change things), perhaps there is an event we have yet to see which will come and get this sorted. My conversations with people have moved during recent months from taking a certain view and trying to persuade others towards it, to more about whatever happens after whatever happens, all have us have got to get on with life and make whatever the new situation is, work for the good of all. That may be too much of a step for some, I appreciate, but I think it's a worthwhile journey to offer the hand of friendship to friends and foes alike when the battle is over.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

That would depend on whether that lack of trust was warranted. There are always benefits for some for keeping that sort of divide open. "safety in numbers" etc which for those who the police would be after is beneficial if they can stoke the rest of the community to add to their defensive numbers.

I also blame some leaders and politicians like David Lammy. Politicians like him could do so much good but instead they use subject matter they know they can abuse to push their own agendas....

Instead of utilising their positions to bridge the gaps and solve problems they jump on these issues, stoke the fires higher and the result id the problems get worse.

I used to find it strange how people on the estate I was living on would constantly talk about "pigs, filth" and much more derogatory names. If you did see a pair of police on patrol on the estate you could see people watching them as they were walking and you could feel how tense the situation was and what could happen.

If they actually had to go to an address to arrest someone they would always do it with a very heavy police presence because 2 or 3 of them would be useless as "community"* backed up their own. *Community normally younger generation. " riot vans to arrest 1 or 2 people and then you get all the social media stuff about the police being over the top, making fun of how many officers it takes to arrest one person etc. the reality being that 1 of those coppers could easily arrest the person they were after but they needed 20+ to make sure that they didn't get overpowered by community members trying to "protect their own."

Then of course you get moans about "why do they do it at 4am in the morning" which of course is so that there is a smaller chance of every young lad from the area getting in on the act. Even so every attempt to arrest 1 normally means 3 or 4 are taken away once "assaults on a police officer" have added to the "bust." And then this is put on social media too.

A couple of years ago there was a lad (22ish) that the police wanted because his partner had reported him for domestic violence. He "went on the run" but kept posting on facebook himself in front of various police stations. In the day, at night. This went on for several weeks. All of those that knew him on the estate cheered him on etc. when the police eventually got hold of him he was in a house 100 yards from his own and had been sofa hopping around the area for those few weeks. Again the police were attacked* when they went to arrest him. Not a riot or anything but pushing shoving, lots of verbals, spitting etc. Then there was a week or 2 of accusations flying around facebook r.e. "betraying our own."

The reality is that most of this hatred towards the police is from the younger generation. London might be a higer grade of problem with all the knife crime but it is across the country. When I was a kid if a policeman, teacher, figure of authority spoke to me I would be polite. If they told me to do something I would say yes sir. Yes there were the odd few that were rebels but these days it just seems that there is a huge problem with lack of respect.

I would suggest this is due to leaders or influencers that push the agenda rather than kids themselves deciding to be rebels.

This sounds like something written by my parents who are in their 80s (who tell me there was absolutely no crime in Southampton in the 50s) Sounds no different to when I was a teenager in the late 70s. There must have been a quiet period in the 90s?

 

[ImpSaint]

This sounds like something written by my parents who are in their 80s (who tell me there was absolutely no crime in Southampton in the 50s) Sounds no different to when I was a teenager in the late 70s. There must have been a quiet period in the 90s?

I'm not for a minute trying to suggest there was more crime years ago. If anything I would suggest there is less crime now than there was in the 70s, 80s, 90s etc.

Yes there may be a spike in certain crimes and of course there are changes in what crime there is.

All I am suggesting is that there used to be much more respect for authority figures and the elderly. Yes when I was a kid we would do naughty things, yes others would go past the line. But there would be politeness. The old man moaning about us making too much noise or playing near his house. But we would be polite and respectful then of course once he went back into his house or we moved on we would be talking about the grumpy old man.

What I am trying to say is that there is more of an "anti-authority" stance these days where the grumpy old man would not be respected or polite conversation but more likely told to f*** o**.

It isn't so much about age groups or kids being kids. My generation and before do tend to respect figures of authority. Yes we can complain about how things are handled but ultimately we do respect the police. We did when we were kids.

When you see the police have to turn up every time in force with numbers just to apprehend someone, for shoplifting or any other crime, then loads of young lads that have nothing to do with it from the area turn it into a mini riot (every time) it is more a case of "who cares what the crime is, he's one of ours and you are the enemy."

I never saw much of this when I was young. I would suggest generations before me saw even less of it. Yes it probably still happened but it wasn't every single time.

It is also telling that parents and friends don't behave like this. If it's their child they aren't the ones trying to batter the police.

I'm talking about young adults in the main here not kids. 16-30 sort of age. However what young kids see they emulate and there are often very young kids repeating what they hear the young adults saying and thus that vibe continues.

I'm not sure how you thought it was me being a grumpy old man speaking like grumpy old men before me. I was a kid in the 80s, a youth in the 90s. Things were really tight back then and the world was much more grim and grey. There was a lot more respect for authority back then though. Much more crime as well.

The oxymoron with all this is that in the 80s/90s I wouldn't have felt safe walking around the council estates whereas I do now, because there is so much less crime. If I had a policeman's uniform on though I wouldn't.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

That would depend on whether that lack of trust was warranted. There are always benefits for some for keeping that sort of divide open. "safety in numbers" etc which for those who the police would be after is beneficial if they can stoke the rest of the community to add to their defensive numbers.
I also blame some leaders and politicians like David Lammy. Politicians like him could do so much good but instead they use subject matter they know they can abuse to push their own agendas....
Instead of utilising their positions to bridge the gaps and solve problems they jump on these issues, stoke the fires higher and the result id the problems get worse.
I used to find it strange how people on the estate I was living on would constantly talk about "pigs, filth" and much more derogatory names. If you did see a pair of police on patrol on the estate you could see people watching them as they were walking and you could feel how tense the situation was and what could happen.
If they actually had to go to an address to arrest someone they would always do it with a very heavy police presence because 2 or 3 of them would be useless as "community"* backed up their own. *Community normally younger generation. " riot vans to arrest 1 or 2 people and then you get all the social media stuff about the police being over the top, making fun of how many officers it takes to arrest one person etc. the reality being that 1 of those coppers could easily arrest the person they were after but they needed 20+ to make sure that they didn't get overpowered by community members trying to "protect their own."
Then of course you get moans about "why do they do it at 4am in the morning" which of course is so that there is a smaller chance of every young lad from the area getting in on the act. Even so every attempt to arrest 1 normally means 3 or 4 are taken away once "assaults on a police officer" have added to the "bust." And then this is put on social media too.
A couple of years ago there was a lad (22ish) that the police wanted because his partner had reported him for domestic violence. He "went on the run" but kept posting on facebook himself in front of various police stations. In the day, at night. This went on for several weeks. All of those that knew him on the estate cheered him on etc. when the police eventually got hold of him he was in a house 100 yards from his own and had been sofa hopping around the area for those few weeks. Again the police were attacked* when they went to arrest him. Not a riot or anything but pushing shoving, lots of verbals, spitting etc. Then there was a week or 2 of accusations flying around facebook r.e. "betraying our own."
The reality is that most of this hatred towards the police is from the younger generation. London might be a higer grade of problem with all the knife crime but it is across the country. When I was a kid if a policeman, teacher, figure of authority spoke to me I would be polite. If they told me to do something I would say yes sir. Yes there were the odd few that were rebels but these days it just seems that there is a huge problem with lack of respect.
I would suggest this is due to leaders or influencers that push the agenda rather than kids themselves deciding to be rebels.

My point was specifically about non-white communities and I certainly wasn't wanting to blur or complicate it with the general relationship between the police and the white working (or non-working) class community. That would open up a whole lot of other complex issues

This is about historical discriminatory treatment by the police

 

[Beddy]

I think I would Add to Imps point too.......... There was more respect for authority and the elderly going back a while. Sadly the media over the years has highlighted what was isolated incidents and through that comes the copycat individual.
Lets also not forget that individuals caught when they were young feel that they were let down by the system and educate their offspring to not trust people. The more that are caught the more this happens. They tend to blame everyone else rather than themselves. Not all it is true........
Until more is done in the education system to thwart this the more it will increase.
Certainly as it seems a lot of people leave it to the schools to not only educate but also to teach some discipline. Again I say not all but a lot........

 

[garysfc]

The way I see it is that this is not about party politics, it is about the country and all of our welfare and all of our future.

Unfortunately, it has become about in party fighting and party politics, with all sides trying to score points off each other. No winners in this I'm afraid.

Here, here. Always thought this should be an open vote. Not sure that would have actually helped but certainly the idea that all politicians should be doing their best for the country is a base line.

 

[ImpSaint]

My point was specifically about non-white communities and I certainly wasn't wanting to blur or complicate it with the general relationship between the police and the white working (or non-working) class community. That would open up a whole lot of other complex issues

This is about historical discriminatory treatment by the police

I understand that. But the reality is that I think the problem we have nowadays is much more of a class thing that is trying to be utillised by ethnic minorities to continue that argument. I think most of the argument is about "class" and of being "non white" you are much more likely to be in that "lower class" living, socialising etc.

I find it very hard to believe that there is the institutional racism within the police that some activists try to insist there is. Of course there will be some racism. Will be hard ever to eradicate all forms of discrimination because there will always be nasty people out there.

 

[ImpSaint]

This is crazy. I know all sides have their crackpots but this one is pretty bad:

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