Off Topic Politics Thread

[VocalMinority]

Reversing their decision for reasons other than Brexit doesn't change the fact they they were prepared to invest previously.

It does actually.

 

[ImpSaint]

It does actually.

So If I had promised to invest in the UK 2 years ago but since then my product has become unwanted and out of favour then you can ignore the fact I was prepared to invest "despite Brexit" and immediately say "see, see."

They haven't decided to build the new plant in Barcelona or Paris instead. they are just building it in their existing plants in Japan because the market for that product has gone kaput. They aren't moving that investment, they are shrinking the investment overall to minimal on their existing Japanese facilities.

Now IF they were shelving plans to build the Juke and Qashqi then you would have a point.

 

[VocalMinority]

So If I had promised to invest in the UK 2 years ago but since then my product has become unwanted and out of favour then you can ignore the fact I was prepared to invest "despite Brexit" and immediately say "see, see."

They haven't decided to build the new plant in Barcelona or Paris instead. they are just building it in their existing plants in Japan because the market for that product has gone kaput. They aren't moving that investment, they are shrinking the investment overall to minimal on their existing Japanese facilities.

Now IF they were shelving plans to build the Juke and Qashqi then you would have a point.

Your first line is a textbook example of being unprepared. They got their post brexit prediction wrong and have pulled out.

 

[ImpSaint]

Your first line is a textbook example of being unprepared. They got their post brexit prediction wrong and have pulled out.

No they haven't. They did not see the diesel scandal exploding as it has. Nor the slowdown. What has got to do with a "post Brexit prediction." You are intentionally mixing up several things here to try and support your argument.

2 years ago their announcement that they were going to invest in new facilities for this product were rightly held up as an example that investment was still being made despite Brexit contrary to all the doom-mongerers statements.

2 years on and the diesel market is collapsing. They are quite obviously having to reconsider what investment they put into this product line. The fact it is happening during the Brexit period has nothing to do with the diesel market collapsing.

You are just talking about is as a "Brexit prediction" when it wasn't a "Brexit prediction." They have lost confidence in the product's viability going forward.

 

[VocalMinority]

No they haven't. They did not see the diesel scandal exploding as it has. Nor the slowdown. What has got to do with a "post Brexit prediction." You are intentionally mixing up several things here to try and support your argument.

2 years ago their announcement that they were going to invest in new facilities for this product were rightly held up as an example that investment was still being made despite Brexit contrary to all the doom-mongerers statements.

2 years on and the diesel market is collapsing. They are quite obviously having to reconsider what investment they put into this product line. The fact it is happening during the Brexit period has nothing to do with the diesel market collapsing.

You are just talking about is as a "Brexit prediction" when it wasn't a "Brexit prediction." They have lost confidence in the product's viability going forward.

Your argument is non sequitar.

Their post brexit prediction was wrong.

 

[ImpSaint]

Your argument is non sequitar.

Their post brexit prediction was wrong.

You are sounding like Adonis now repeating everything like that.

Their prediction was wrong. They have not changed their mind due to Brexit though. They have changed their mind because that model is not going to need a new line built anymore. Nothing to do with Brexit.

The only thing to do with Brexit is that while the product did need a line they were quite prepared to build it in the UK "depsite Brexit" just as they are still prepared to increase their investment for the Juke and Qashqai.

I have no idea why you can't understand that. Probably because it doesn't suit. I suspect in the next days/weeks/months you expect Nissan to announce it will pull the other investments?

 

[VocalMinority]

You are sounding like Adonis now repeating everything like that.

Their prediction was wrong. They have not changed their mind due to Brexit though. They have changed their mind because that model is not going to need a new line built anymore. Nothing to do with Brexit.

The only thing to do with Brexit is that while the product did need a line they were quite prepared to build it in the UK "depsite Brexit" just as they are still prepared to increase their investment for the Juke and Qashqai.

I have no idea why you can't understand that. Probably because it doesn't suit. I suspect in the next days/weeks/months you expect Nissan to announce it will pull the other investments?

I do understand, That logic is non sequitur. None of your arguments support your own point about them being prepared to invest. Some, in fact, it suggests the opposite.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

You are sounding like Adonis now repeating everything like that.

Their prediction was wrong. They have not changed their mind due to Brexit though. They have changed their mind because that model is not going to need a new line built anymore. Nothing to do with Brexit.

The only thing to do with Brexit is that while the product did need a line they were quite prepared to build it in the UK "depsite Brexit" just as they are still prepared to increase their investment for the Juke and Qashqai.

I have no idea why you can't understand that. Probably because it doesn't suit. I suspect in the next days/weeks/months you expect Nissan to announce it will pull the other investments?

The point you are completely and utterly failing to grasp is that just about every nation in the world currently has a trading agreement, mostly tariff-free, with the EU. There is, of course, one glaring exception, or there possibly will be come March 29th. Do you not think that this inescapable fact might just have a smidgeon of influence on a series of major companies moving some or all of their investment out of this country? The way things are going we might not have any trading agreements with any country at all, except under the much-vaunted WTO terms. Guess how many the government has in the pipeline? Think of a number less than 1.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I have been ridiculing the IMF forecasts for this year and the future, forecasts that the EU then virtually mirrored. Forecasts that showed the UK slowing heavily and the major EU countries storming ahead. Posters on here have dismissed me saying that we are doing better than the Eurozone and Germany was heading into recession.

So while I would normally agree that a professional should be more trustworthy than Joe Bloggs (or ImpSaint) on these matters, in this case with Italy already announced as in recession, Germany about to be and the UK still with growth, it is not me questioning that the man on the street "knows more." It is more to do with the political vested interests of those that are producing such statements and figures.

The Nissan example is just one. Every news outlet and news forecast is saying that they have changed their mind because of Brexit. They quite obviously haven't read Nissan's actually statement which details that the decision had been made for business reasons (see my previous posts) and adds "that the continued uncertainty" r.e. Brexit "is not helping companies plan."

"Nissan Executive Vice President for Manufacturing and Supply Chain Management, Hideyuki Sakamoto, said: "A model like X-Trail is manufactured in multiple locations globally, and can therefore be re-evaluated based on changes to the business environment. As always, Nissan has to make optimal use of its global investments for the benefits of its customers."

Nissan Europe Chairman Gianluca de Ficchy said: "Nissan is investing heavily in new technologies and powertrains for the next generation of vehicles in our Sunderland plant. To support this we are taking advantage of our global assets, and with X-Trail already manufactured in Japan, we can reduce our upfront investment costs."

Like I said. They are just going to build them in Japan and import them in, if there is a demand for them. Not "because of Brexit" as has been stated across the media. Why would they pull investment of one product "because of Brexit" yet reconfirm their commitment to the other 2 products?

"We appreciate this will be disappointing for our UK team and partners. Our workforce in Sunderland has our full confidence, and will continue to benefit from the investment planned for Juke and Qashqai."

So, Osvaldorama, in normal circumstances I would agree with you entirely but in this circumstance, on this subject there is most definitely a lot of stuff, from economists and other avenues, that is solely devised with the intent to try and paint a picture. If they were actually trying to tell the truth it would be great........but they aren't.

They don't like Brexit so they make forecasts with superb growth for the EU, gloomy slow growth for the UK.
Sneery commentators like James O Brien come up with soundbites that all his fanboys jump on ignoring the fact that Bananas in the supermaket always have a Costa Rica, Peru (or other SA) label on them. That they come in containers not Lorries. And will continue to come into Portsmouth (or possible another port with capacity if needed.)
And all the main media outlets online as well as on TV decide to push this Nissan announcement as being "because of Brexit" despite them being able to read that is not what was said and despite knowing the real reasons why this decision was made.

It is no wonder that people do not trust the "professionals" at the moment, especially on this subject.

I think that you’re right, in that no one can accurately predict the future, professional expert or not. I do completely agree that many forecasts aren’t worth the paper they are written on! I had no choice but to listen to trusted experts when making my decision though.

I sincerely hope that your faith in Britain isnt misfounded and that Brexit works out as you believe it will.

I would love it if I eat my words and brexit is a roaring success. There is just so much evidence to the contrary though and nothing anyone has said has convinced me that it’s a risk worth taking.

 

[San Tejón]

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[Beddy]

Guys.......I see all your arguments and while I obviously do disagree with some if not most. I understood at time of voting that things were not going to be easy if we left the EU.
I don’t know if I am right or wrong in the way I think. I just feel that given time if we do completely leave the investment will eventually start to come back in. It is in no ones interest in the EU or the uk not to deal with each other. Eventually with patience things will be sorted. For some of you this will be a difficult time I appreciate....... it will not be the end of the world though.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Guys.......I see all your arguments and while I obviously do disagree with some if not most. I understood at time of voting that things were not going to be easy if we left the EU.
I don’t know if I am right or wrong in the way I think. I just feel that given time if we do completely leave the investment will eventually start to come back in. It is in no ones interest in the EU or the uk not to deal with each other. Eventually with patience things will be sorted. For some of you this will be a difficult time I appreciate....... it will not be the end of the world though.

So how many lost jobs? How many ruined businesses? How long will the self-inflicted recession be? How many more homeless sleeping on the street? How many more children living in poverty?

Difficult doesn’t even begin to describe it Beddy.

 

[Osvaldorama]

So how many lost jobs? How many ruined businesses? How long will the self-inflicted recession be? How many more homeless sleeping on the street? How many more children living in poverty?

Difficult doesn’t even begin to describe it Beddy.

Exactly.

People in this country don’t realise how good we have it. Economies are fragile things, just because in our lives so far things have been rosy doesn’t necessarily mean “things will be alright in the end”

 

[Beddy]

So how many lost jobs? How many ruined businesses? How long will the self-inflicted recession be? How many more homeless sleeping on the street? How many more children living in poverty?

Difficult doesn’t even begin to describe it Beddy.

I can’t answer that, just as you can’t. None of us can answer those questions. I am not saying there won’t be rough times. I just don’t see it being as bad as you guys do.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I can’t answer that, just as you can’t. None of us can answer those questions. I am not saying there won’t be rough times. I just don’t see it being as bad as you guys do.

We shall see. Even Rees-Mogg says we might wait 50 years to see the benefits of Brexit, but then he doesn’t really care about the issues I mentioned.

 

[Beddy]

We shall see. Even Rees-Mogg says we might wait 50 years to see the benefits of Brexit, but then he doesn’t really care about the issues I mentioned.

Well the one thing I will say is that I truly hope my expectation comes to fruition a lot quicker than that. That’s not the worse prediction I’ve seen. The best one I heard was about 2/3 years with improvement going at a reasonable rate. As you say we will have to see. You never know May may get a deal you’ll be happy with. But I wouldn’t hold your breath.........

 

[davecg69]

The problem is, guys, that no matter what happens after Brexit whether or not it actually happens, the split across the U.K. is huge in terms of understanding and decent debate. It has become the most divisive thing which has ever happened to this country and I fear may take generations to heal. My son has recently blocked me on Facebook as I’m apparently gloom-mongering and “like chicken-licken” saying it’s all going to be a disaster if it goes ahead (my personal feeling) and won’t get into a decent debate because he wants to “wait and see”. It’s wrecked relationships and caused huge rows plus allowed all the extremists and idiots to come out if the woodwork. The press have whipped it up and yet no one seems to understand how bad things could be.
To paraphrase Vin - what a ****ing triumph

 

[davecg69]

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From James Melville on Twitter - “EU-Japan now have a free trade agreement which came into force this week. Nissan Xtrails will now enter the EU market from Japan with a 0% tariff instead of a 10% tariff which would be applied to Nissan exporting from the UK in a WTO no-deal Brexit.”

 

[Archers Road]

I can’t answer that, just as you can’t. None of us can answer those questions. I am not saying there won’t be rough times. I just don’t see it being as bad as you guys do.

Do you anticipate rough times for yourself, or are other people going to have to do the heavy lifting?

 

[StJabbo]

Well the one thing I will say is that I truly hope my expectation comes to fruition a lot quicker than that. That’s not the worse prediction I’ve seen. The best one I heard was about 2/3 years with improvement going at a reasonable rate. As you say we will have to see. You never know May may get a deal you’ll be happy with. But I wouldn’t hold your breath.........

Where did you hear that? ImpSaint, the tooth fairy?