On the other hand, surely you can longer deny that Brexit is plain bad news? You'd have to ignore an awful lot of evidence not to see it for a self imposed disaster.
Off Topic Politics Thread
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On the other hand, surely you can longer deny that Brexit is plain bad news? You'd have to ignore an awful lot of evidence not to see it for a self imposed disaster.
Dyson is moving so he avoids paying tax to the uk government.....nowt to do with brexit Chiclo .....hence he is leaving his R&D here because he pays little tax on it otherwise that would be gone as well.
And before anyone asks am I sticking up for brexit?.......the answer is no, I am just pointing out Dyson is all about money.
Yes I will still support Brexit.
And the Nissan move has nothing to do with Brexit. More to do with the Japan - EU trade deal meaning that they can export these Xtrails in from Japan. They aren't deciding to invest the proposed UK money anywhere else. They are just going to import direct from Japan and not build a factory anywhere in Europe.
Also tied into this is the proposed model was a big diesel guzzler and thus that avenue has in recent months become something that needed re-considering. I suspect there are a lot of boardroom questions going on at the moment on diesel (or other out of fashion) investments. Same as Ford and GM have stated. Same as Jaguar's problems. Diesel and prestige motors are having a hard time at the moment and thus there will be a lot of investment being pulled/recalled, not just in the UK, all over Europe and the world.
The difference in this is quite simple. If anyone says it is because of Brexit you jump on it believing it wholesale. Rightly or wrong I am much more cynical about that reason being given for everything whether it be based on "trusted" economists or the CEO of any major company answerable to his/her shareholders.
We aren't much different here. If a CEO says something is 100% because of Brexit then you immediately believe that. I don't believe it because in many cases it seems to be just another excuse for a change in planning OR company failures.
I daresay both my sceptism and your acceptance are equally wrong by equal measure in as many cases as each other. Yet neither of us will ever agree on this because you want to believe and I don't want to believe.
We are both picking up statements to support our side like children saying "see, see."
Not just me and you. People are suddenly holding Kenneth Clarke as a beacon after years of opposing everything he says. Anna Soubry is held up now as a model politician when just a couple of years ago, she was regularly attacked as a minister. Alls forgotten, single issue politics
And yes I daresay I hold up some politicians that I have slated previously. I just don't hold them up as moral beacons ignoring my past feelings. On this issue I agree with them. Other than John Mann who I have repeatedly said I like even before the referendum. He is right about constituencies like his being underfunded for decades. We have heard constantly about regeneration and investment into areas hit by the de-industrialisation of the 80s/90s. Problem being that there has been no action with all the money invested elsewhere.
His point with reference to the EU was that it is always pointed out that it is government policy that has let people down, nothing to do with the EU. Which would be true if not for the constant talk of these areas being the biggest beneficiary of EU funding. HE quite rightly stated that he could guarantee that most constituents would tell you they hadn't seen any of it and that in his constituency and others like his they had seen next to no EU funding.
People just do not see the point in us sending money to the EU for them to decide where part of it is spent in the UK. People discount this and "pfft" when they hear the "net contribution" argument.
I am not saying that our government would have spent it any better. They would have just ploughed it all into Crossrail 3 or rebrand all the London museums or something like that. It most definitely wouldn't have been spent where it was most needed though (just as it isn't now.)
Anyways. This is all old road. You won't change your mind, I won't change mine. We will both continue to nod approvingly at anything we agree with and we will both quite happily ignore a lot of the reality hidden behind the headlines. Welcome to the modern world. Hurrah for the internet and social media. Who knew the internet would have quite the opposite effect of "connecting people."
For all the talk of progress here we are in a "my tribe vs yours" environment. And it isn't just the "oiks." The intelligentsia are very much in on the act, if not the key drivers of it.
[QUOTE="ImpSaint, post: 12534958, member
Nissan has not cancelled investment in its Sunderland plant as you have stated. They will still be investing in their current setup. They have cancelled the EXTRA investment that they had promised for a new planned motor. Something they want to develop but in the current climate we will have to wait and see if they actually do develop this new "SUV" anywhere.
I believe that Renault are part owners of Nissan, so there must be a more than reasonable chance that the new car could be built in France.
Nissan has not cancelled investment in its Sunderland plant as you have stated. They will still be investing in their current setup. They have cancelled the EXTRA investment that they had promised for a new planned motor. Something they want to develop but in the current climate we will have to wait and see if they actually do develop this new "SUV" anywhere.
I believe that Renault are part owners of Nissan, so there must be a more than reasonable chance that the new car could be built in France.
You miss my point. I said “whether or not” at the start. The point is they are leaving.
I still think this would have eventually happened anyway. Most of our major manufacturing has already gone to Europe and beyond. Has been eroding away over the years. This since we joined the so called common market. Oh sorry forgot to add the political side of things....still not going to go into that.........
That was all that was needed. If anyone needs reminding this was in response to a hypothetical "If loads of companies were saying they were making decisions to stop investing in the UK and it was definitely because of Brexit, would you still want it to go ahead?".
The clarification is perfect. Yours is a blind belief in something or other irrespective of economic impact. Which is fine. At least we know.
What a ****ing triumph!
Vin
It isn't a new car. It is a car already being made in Japan. The promise to make it here was before the EU-Japan FTA. So more than likely is that they will send it straight from Japan. So more than likely this was a decision with not a lot to do with Brexit, although it is a nice way to get out of the "promise" without saying "we changed our minds."
There is a French parts manufacturer that has invested (and currently building) NEW facilities on the same development as Nissan is on but for some reason that hasn't been reported.
A lot of EU manufacturing is going outside as well. Morocco is growing very quickly on the back of building "French" motors. Maybe that is because of "Frexit." Who knows?
No you are framing that. If the Tory party said their policies would help you and the (supposed) right wing press, told you that they would, that a vote the other way would be doom and gloom for you..........would you support them?
You are equating me as ignoring what I hear because I don;t care what they say rather than understand that I (and many not just 'oiks like me) do not believe they are Ronseal.
You choose to clrify that I am ignoring evidence. I'm not ignoring any evidence because everything we have been told is project, forecasts and CEOs that have an interest in using Brexit as an excuse.
Like constantly hearing about Dover - Calais, despite the chief of the port of Calais regularly saying "it is not true." The BBC even stated on the main news last week that Dover handles 1/5th of all imports which it most definitely does not. I have no idea where they get to that number unless they are calculating it based purely on trucks...........but they didn't say any clarification, they just said 1/5th of ALL trade.
Like I said though we are not going to get anywhere. You believe everything you hear anti Brexit and I don't. So we will always end up in this position thinking the other is being totally unreasonable.
What a daft statement Beddy. If something is a fact, then it’s true and not fiction. So any bad news that factually is due to Brexit, of course will be blamed on Brexit.
I think you worded that oddly or wrong.
Yea I guess I could have worded that different........it doesn’t alter though as every piece of bad news is banded as being because of brexit. My understanding of the Nissan situation is that the decision wasn’t just about Brexit. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise.
My understanding is that Brexit or not, they have no need to have an "avenue into the EU" for the product now because their trade deal in time will provide a direct route to the EU market.
This allied with the current market for the product being heavily affected by anti-diesel thinking as well as there being a slowdown in the Eurozone market overall.
So even if there was no such thing as Brexit, and the product was still favourable and selling well in the EU, the reality is that they don;t need a new factory ifor EU access anymore because they can supply direct from Japan.
That's not to say that they wouldn't prefer us to stay in the EU because of their factories already here, so of course it makes sense to blame this on Brexit because they want us to stay in. However Brexit hasn't really got that much to do with the actual decision made that is being blamed on Brexit.
Er not with automotive Beddy. That had been enjoying a come back in the UK, with Nissan. Toyota and Jaguar leading the charge. I would mention Honda for @saintrichie123 but they’ve been having an up and down time for a few years.
Let me know if you want me to dig out the actual figures from my old PC
I trust the opinions of countless people who professionally study these things, rather than blind faith in a ridiculous gamble.
Leave voters are basically trusting their own daily mail informed decisions, over the opinions of many, many experts.
It makes no logical sense to think leave voters know more than professional economists.
I have been ridiculing the IMF forecasts for this year and the future, forecasts that the EU then virtually mirrored. Forecasts that showed the UK slowing heavily and the major EU countries storming ahead. Posters on here have dismissed me saying that we are doing better than the Eurozone and Germany was heading into recession.
So while I would normally agree that a professional should be more trustworthy than Joe Bloggs (or ImpSaint) on these matters, in this case with Italy already announced as in recession, Germany about to be and the UK still with growth, it is not me questioning that the man on the street "knows more." It is more to do with the political vested interests of those that are producing such statements and figures.
The Nissan example is just one. Every news outlet and news forecast is saying that they have changed their mind because of Brexit. They quite obviously haven't read Nissan's actually statement which details that the decision had been made for business reasons (see my previous posts) and adds "that the continued uncertainty" r.e. Brexit "is not helping companies plan."
"Nissan Executive Vice President for Manufacturing and Supply Chain Management, Hideyuki Sakamoto, said: "A model like X-Trail is manufactured in multiple locations globally, and can therefore be re-evaluated based on changes to the business environment. As always, Nissan has to make optimal use of its global investments for the benefits of its customers."
Nissan Europe Chairman Gianluca de Ficchy said: "Nissan is investing heavily in new technologies and powertrains for the next generation of vehicles in our Sunderland plant. To support this we are taking advantage of our global assets, and with X-Trail already manufactured in Japan, we can reduce our upfront investment costs."
Like I said. They are just going to build them in Japan and import them in, if there is a demand for them. Not "because of Brexit" as has been stated across the media. Why would they pull investment of one product "because of Brexit" yet reconfirm their commitment to the other 2 products?
"We appreciate this will be disappointing for our UK team and partners. Our workforce in Sunderland has our full confidence, and will continue to benefit from the investment planned for Juke and Qashqai."
So, Osvaldorama, in normal circumstances I would agree with you entirely but in this circumstance, on this subject there is most definitely a lot of stuff, from economists and other avenues, that is solely devised with the intent to try and paint a picture. If they were actually trying to tell the truth it would be great........but they aren't.
They don't like Brexit so they make forecasts with superb growth for the EU, gloomy slow growth for the UK.
Sneery commentators like James O Brien come up with soundbites that all his fanboys jump on ignoring the fact that Bananas in the supermaket always have a Costa Rica, Peru (or other SA) label on them. That they come in containers not Lorries. And will continue to come into Portsmouth (or possible another port with capacity if needed.)
And all the main media outlets online as well as on TV decide to push this Nissan announcement as being "because of Brexit" despite them being able to read that is not what was said and despite knowing the real reasons why this decision was made.
It is no wonder that people do not trust the "professionals" at the moment, especially on this subject.
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What about all the leavers branding it as pro-brexit before the decision was reversed?
This was a flagship deal for leavers saying business will still invest in Britain after Brexit.
Reversing their decision for reasons other than Brexit doesn't change the fact they they were prepared to invest previously.