Off Topic Politics Thread

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Puck said:
There's nothing happening in America that hasn't happened there before. This is the country that murdered millions of native Americans, banned all immigration from China between 1882 and 1943 and locked up over 100,000 Japanese-Americans during World War 2.
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No, this is different.

There's no doubt that the USA is a country well used to trauma, internal conflict and upheaval. But it's always overcome thise traumas because as a nation it's always looked forward, always ultimately embraced the progressive over the reactionary and regressive, and always allowed optimism to triumph over negativity.

Now for the first time in it's admittedly violent history, it appears to be going backwards and embracing something very ugly indeed. A country that has struggled, with considerable success, to overcome the traumas of it's racist past, is now witnessing one of it's two great political parties - the party of Abraham Lincoln - embracing the sort of tribal enmities and natinalistic sentiments Americans were supposed to have left behind when they moved from the old world to the new.

To go from Obama to Trump is a retrogressive step in itself. But that's just headline stuff, fairly obvious and fairly shallow drama. It's not that the Republican party is drifting to the right that's the cause for concern - it's a well organised sustained power grab by nationalists, protectionists and racists.

Imagine the UK conservative party being systematically taken over by Ukip activists from yop to bottom, with Farage or worse as leader, and you'll have some idea of the existential threat to the Republican Party.
 
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Ian Thumwood said:
I think that we should dispense with the idea of America ever being "one of the world's great democracies. it is true that American intervention brought the First War to a quicker conclusion and was instrumental in the defeat of the Nazi's but at the same time it was treating a significant proportion of it's population with distain and it's politics was riddle with mafia corruption. It is ultimately tragic that America became "the voice of the West" especially as it has functioned as a supposed democracy for little under 250 years.
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Of course it's one of the world's great democracies, despite all it's flaws. Are you remotely familiar with it's constitution?

It's the very definition of a Federal Republic. And it declared it's independance in 1776, by the way. So I'm not I understand your last sentence?
 
It's still a young country that's still got a lot of outdated laws and ideals from its traumatic foundation. Tbh the fact it's survived this long given its mix of cultures, immigration, size etc is a testament to its strong democracy. We broke out of the EU for far less, which is an even younger institution. Both are still evolving and will hopefully learn from this and be stronger for it.

Same thing is happening to us and Spain as well with our less developed areas.
 
Beef said:
RIP Tories

The ruling Tory party compiled a list of 36 MPs and their associated "indiscretions" in order to help ensure they voted with the government on key votes.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/29/tory-aides-spreadsheet-names-36-sex-pest-mps/

The list has leaked with all names now

Disgusting. Rather blackmail then report harassment.
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I wouldn't call this a Tory problem until the whole lot is uncovered. Even John Mann (my favourite MP) is hinting a lot at his own party's problems on this issue.

Hopefully it can all be cleared out no matter which party they are from!!!
 
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ImpSaint said:
I wouldn't call this a Tory problem until the whole lot is uncovered. Even John Mann (my favourite MP) is hinting a lot at his own party's problems on this issue.

Hopefully it can all be cleared out no matter which party they are from!!!
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Nonetheless, the Tories do currently have a clear lead in the Sexual Harrassment Stakes so far.
 
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Archers Road said:
No, this is different.

There's no doubt that the USA is a country well used to trauma, internal conflict and upheaval. But it's always overcome thise traumas because as a nation it's always looked forward, always ultimately embraced the progressive over the reactionary and regressive, and always allowed optimism to triumph over negativity.

Now for the first time in it's admittedly violent history, it appears to be going backwards and embracing something very ugly indeed. A country that has struggled, with considerable success, to overcome the traumas of it's racist past, is now witnessing one of it's two great political parties - the party of Abraham Lincoln - embracing the sort of tribal enmities and natinalistic sentiments Americans were supposed to have left behind when they moved from the old world to the new.

To go from Obama to Trump is a retrogressive step in itself. But that's just headline stuff, fairly obvious and fairly shallow drama. It's not that the Republican party is drifting to the right that's the cause for concern - it's a well organised sustained power grab by nationalists, protectionists and racists.

Imagine the UK conservative party being systematically taken over by Ukip activists from yop to bottom, with Farage or worse as leader, and you'll have some idea of the existential threat to the Republican Party.
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Sensationalist much? This rather reminds me of how less than a year ago we were told Trump was a fascist. The new Hitler had been elected and we were returning to the 1930s. Now that idea seems rather silly and people are trying to come up with something new along the same lines. I actually find it quite amusing how so many people criticise Trump for exploiting fear and then do exactly the same thing with their overblown claims about him and the people around him.

No doubt there are power struggles within the Republican party. There are power struggles in most political parties. That doesn't mean the party or Americans in general are embracing racism or tribal enmities. The truth is very simple. The "melting pot" is a myth, there has been anti-someone-or-other sentiment throughout American history and there is nothing particularly different, shocking or new about the current situation in America or in various other parts of the world. Many Americans (in fact many westerners) see globalisation as a threat to their way of life and they are protesting just as the peasants protested about artificially low wages in 1381, just as the Luddites protested about machinery in mills threatening their livelihood, just as the Swing rioters protested against threshing machines and just as the likes of Denis Kearney protested in the 1870s about the cheap Chinese labour that they believed was keeping wages low.

When people feel they have been unfairly disadvantaged and/or aren't being listened to they rebel against the established order. Sometimes this rebellion is violent, sometimes it involves people ignoring a politician's failings because that politician is the only person offering to do anything about the issue affecting them. This has happened throughout history and will no doubt continue to happen in the future. There is no more or less to it than that. The answer isn't to ignore or rail against the complaints of these people or start throwing around hyperbolic accusations of racism (after all that reaction played a part in Trump's election in the first place). The answer is to identify the change that is disadvantaging these people and slow it down or otherwise mitigate its negative effects.
 
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Puck said:
Sensationalist much? This rather reminds me of how less than a year ago we were told Trump was a fascist. The new Hitler had been elected and we were returning to the 1930s. Now that idea seems rather silly and people are trying to come up with something new along the same lines. I actually find it quite amusing how so many people criticise Trump for exploiting fear and then do exactly the same thing with their overblown claims about him and the people around him.

No doubt there are power struggles within the Republican party. There are power struggles in most political parties. That doesn't mean the party or Americans in general are embracing racism or tribal enmities. The truth is very simple. The "melting pot" is a myth, there has been anti-someone-or-other sentiment throughout American history and there is nothing particularly different, shocking or new about the current situation in America or in various other parts of the world. Many Americans (in fact many westerners) see globalisation as a threat to their way of life and they are protesting just as the peasants protested about artificially low wages in 1381, just as the Luddites protested about machinery in mills threatening their livelihood, just as the Swing rioters protested against threshing machines and just as the likes of Denis Kearney protested in the 1870s about the cheap Chinese labour that they believed was keeping wages low.

When people feel they have been unfairly disadvantaged and/or aren't being listened to they rebel against the established order. Sometimes this rebellion is violent, sometimes it involves people ignoring a politician's failings because that politician is the only person offering to do anything about the issue affecting them. This has happened throughout history and will no doubt continue to happen in the future. There is no more or less to it than that. The answer isn't to ignore or rail against the complaints of these people or start throwing around hyperbolic accusations of racism (after all that reaction played a part in Trump's election in the first place). The answer is to identify the change that is disadvantaging these people and slow it down or otherwise mitigate its negative effects.
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Well Trump has already called the KKK and assorted white nationalists "wonderful people", demonised a whole religion, threatened to build a wall to keep the foreigners out, and shown absolute contempt for the rule of law and the dignity of his office, so what more does he have to do to convince you he is a fascist?

Everything in your last paragraph could apply to Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
 
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Puck said:
The answer is to identify the change that is disadvantaging these people and slow it down or otherwise mitigate its negative effects.
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Problem is that as this is what got Trump into power his policies are based around exacerbating the issues to keep him there.
 
Archers Road said:
Well Trump has already called the KKK and assorted white nationalists "wonderful people", demonised a whole religion, threatened to build a wall to keep the foreigners out, and shown absolute contempt for the rule of law and the dignity of his office, so what more does he have to do to convince you he is a fascist?

Everything in your last paragraph could apply to Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ly-a-formula-for-that/?utm_term=.59e18c79df23

The Washington Posts take on whether he is a fascist. A year old now and I think point 10's score could now go up a bit (although I don't think he has eaten any children!). They call him ' an amateurish imitation of the real thing.'

Whatever label you put on him, he is certainly an embarrassment to the American people. Luckily a some of his policies are being kicked out by the US courts.
 
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Whiteley Saint said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ly-a-formula-for-that/?utm_term=.59e18c79df23

The Washington Posts take on whether he is a fascist. A year old now and I think point 10's score could now go up a bit (although I don't think he has eaten any children!). They call him ' an amateurish imitation of the real thing.'

Whatever label you put on him, he is certainly an embarrassment to the American people. Luckily a some of his policies are being kicked out by the US courts.
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Quite an interesting read, and probably a fair amount of truth behind the humour. As a fascist, Trump is a weedy excuse for the real thing.

Fortunately for the US and the world, the founding fathers foresaw the possibility of a tyrant coming to high office, and designed a constitution intended to even out the powers of the State across various bodies and institutions. Because of their foresight, the 'most powerful man in the world' often finds the exercise of his powers severely limited. In American politics, absolutely nothing happens without compromise, which goes some way to explaining why, under this President, very little legislation is happening at all.

So Trump is not the threat to the world that Hitler was, partly because he's all bluster anyway, but also because the US constitution is sufficiently robust that he is unable to grasp or manipulate the apparatus' of state power.

My original point about the crisis in the Republican Party was less about Trump, and more about the orchestrated infiltration of the GOP by far right activists at grass roots level - a malaise that began with the Tea Party and which has accelerated since, with the growing influence of genuinely fascist media outlets like Breitbart. There have been a lot of high level resignations by old school patrician Republicans uneasy about the populist and frankly racist direction their party is moving in.
 
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I am 76 years old, and would like to apologise to every woman I have worked with or known socially since I passed puberty (obviously young; the working class do that sort of thing) should I have caused offence with any remark or action that was considered flirtatious.

FFS. Touching a woman's knee is the act of a slimy creep. Well come on, he's a Tory MP, it's obligatory!* But seriously, the guy got a slap, and quite right. While we might ask whether this behaviour of his was tried elsewhere on women who felt less empowered, this single act alone marks him out as a slimeball. But whether it is career destroying is open to question.


*(I jest on this point. Over the years I have met a number of Tory MPs for whom I had great respect and some Labour ones I was unhappy to share the same air with.)
 
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Missing Lambo said:
I am 76 years old, and would like to apologise to every woman I have worked with or known socially since I passed puberty (obviously young; the working class do that sort of thing) should I have caused offence with any remark or action that was considered flirtatious.

FFS. Touching a woman's knee is the act of a slimy creep. Well come on, he's a Tory MP, it's obligatory!* But seriously, the guy got a slap, and quite right. While we might ask whether this behaviour of his was tried elsewhere on women who felt less empowered, this single act alone marks him out as a slimeball. But whether it is career destroying is open to question.


*(I jest on this point. Over the years I have met a number of Tory MPs for whom I had great respect and some Labour ones I was unhappy to share the same air with.)
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If this is the only reason he has stepped down then, in my opinion, it is over the top. The lady involved was not bothered after all. Some of these allegations are undermining the genuine serious allegations which apparently are floating about.

Times have changed and genuine bullying and harassment must be dealt with, but it seems the world (like football) is now to become contactless. If this type of case is raised over all employment we will be awash with claims. Some people are tactile and they must be scared stiff that they will now be getting sacked for something innocent. Only yesterday Mr WS visited another office and was hugged by one woman and touched on the shoulders by another. Not sexual just a pleased to see you. They both suddenly realised what they had done and said how crazy it was getting. Mr WS was not traumatised I am pleased to say. Often it is the spirit in which something happens which is the key.
 
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