Off Topic Politics Thread

[BobbyD]

All Trump's supporters are either racist or they are supporting a racist. Both can be equally as bad.

And I would take it down and put it in a museum.

Would that be the same as all Germans are nazis as they were at one point fighting for Germany (whether forced or voluntary).

Should we take down Churchills statue because he gave the commands to firebomb dresden and put him into a museum?

Sorry if this sounds very argumentative but i see a lot of outright polarising views and everything is very black and white. Trump is an absolute clown no doubt about it but even the above phrase is being mis-used to basically say trump supporters are racist.

It is no better than saying Corbyn supporters are all terrorists because he supports HAMAS (well more anti israel) and the IRA (back in the day, probably still today)

 

[benditlikeabanana]

The confederate flag that everyone sees is the confederate battle flag, the Confederate had 3 different State flags that you never see waving around. The battle flag was the flag of the poor guys knee deep in gore and ****, not the rich slave owners safe out of the way. Just a historical point, I do get the symbolism though

 

[benditlikeabanana]

They are not destroying the statues, they are putting them in storage while they build a museum. The problem with America is many still celebrate a losing side. Many still see the confed flag as a flag of honour.

The war was 100% about keeping slaves and other racist ****, it's a bit like Germany having statues of Hitler etc all over the place. The real problem is the Southern leaders should have been killed when the war ended, it's to many they are deemed heroes.

Robert E Lee was an exceptional soldier and served the US army for 30 years (including the Mexican war) before the Civil War, he deserves his statue for this service alone. He was begged by the North to fight on their side, but he could not face killing his own kin. Top of his class at West Point, he was maybe too aggressive when outnumbered but pulled off some stunning victories. Men like this should be remembered for their actions, and the age that they lived in not taken into consideration.

 

[San Tejón]

Just been sent this and found it amusing.

You must log in or register to see images

No offence intended, Mail readers.

 

[Beef]

Would that be the same as all Germans are nazis as they were at one point fighting for Germany (whether forced or voluntary).

Should we take down Churchills statue because he gave the commands to firebomb dresden and put him into a museum?

Sorry if this sounds very argumentative but i see a lot of outright polarising views and everything is very black and white. Trump is an absolute clown no doubt about it but even the above phrase is being mis-used to basically say trump supporters are racist.

It is no better than saying Corbyn supporters are all terrorists because he supports HAMAS (well more anti israel) and the IRA (back in the day, probably still today)

If Corbyn was giving speeches about how great the IRA are and racist speeches and other crazy stuff. Then you still voted for him then yeah, you at the very least are enabling him. Corbyn may have some dodgy views, but for the moment he isn't bringing it into politics. It's why I view Tory voters as enablers of the sick/disabled and poor getting ****ted on.

Churchill is also a guy who **** past seems to be swept under a carpet. The guy was a ****.

 

[Beef]

Robert E Lee was an exceptional soldier and served the US army for 30 years (including the Mexican war) before the Civil War, he deserves his statue for this service alone. He was begged by the North to fight on their side, but he could not face killing his own kin. Top of his class at West Point, he was maybe too aggressive when outnumbered but pulled off some stunning victories. Men like this should be remembered for their actions, and the age that they lived in not taken into consideration.

Tell that to all the slaves he had and all the slaves he killed. You can not just look at the good a person done and get rid of the bad.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

If Corbyn was giving speeches about how great the IRA are and racist speeches and other crazy stuff. Then you still voted for him then yeah, you at the very least are enabling him. Corbyn may have some dodgy views, but for the moment he isn't bringing it into politics. It's why I view Tory voters as enablers of the sick/disabled and poor getting ****ted on.

Churchill is also a guy who **** past seems to be swept under a carpet. The guy was a ****.

Everything is not as simplistic as you make out but that's your opinion and you are entitled to state it even though I don't happen to agree.

 

[Beef]

Everything is not as simplistic as you make out but that's your opinion and you are entitled to state it even though I don't happen to agree.

Each to there own, I won't call every Tory voter a twat. Because people vote for whoever helps them the most. But every Tory voter is enabling what the Tories are doing to the sick and poor by getting them into power by voting for them. It maybe simplistic to some, but I would say the same for Labour if they were doing the same if they were in charge.

I have never looked at life as in "that person did a good thing once so that's remember them for it". You have a whole life to do good/bad, not just one thing can define it. If you do equal of each, you should be remembered for both.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

So lets rip down Boudicas statue, she murdered thousands of innocents and had slaves, lets wipe Caesar from history as he sold thousands into slavery, lets ban Muhammed as he raped, beheaded, held and sold slaves. horrible deeds were done throughout history, and most were legal or accepted at the time they were commited, we move on. I have not heard anything from these liberals about the thousands of slaves being held today, history you can not change- only learn from.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Each to there own, I won't call every Tory voter a twat. Because people vote for whoever helps them the most. But every Tory voter is enabling what the Tories are doing to the sick and poor by getting them into power by voting for them. It maybe simplistic to some, but I would say the same for Labour if they were doing the same if they were in charge.

I have never looked at life as in "that person did a good thing once so that's remember them for it". You have a whole life to do good/bad, not just one thing can define it. If you do equal of each, you should be remembered for both.

No one is perfect or a saint. Most do a mixture of good and not so good, we are after all human. There are obviously different levels of bad and some of it is subjective. I assume you don't bother to vote because every party has their own agenda which always means that someone loses out and that's not just the rich. That is the only way not to 'enable' people, by not taking part. I can not think of a single party that does not have something that I personally find unacceptable in it's make up/policies. I just decide which is the least objectionable and who is talking less bullshit.

I'm talking generally here and not about statements you have made.

 

[Beef]

No one is perfect or a saint. Most do a mixture of good and not so good, we are after all human. There are obviously different levels of bad and some of it is subjective. I assume you don't bother to vote because every party has their own agenda which always means that someone loses out and that's not just the rich. That is the only way not to 'enable' people, by not taking part. I can not think of a single party that does not have something that I personally find unacceptable in it's make up/policies. I just decide which is the least objectionable and who is talking less bullshit.

I'm talking generally here and not about statements you have made.

That's why I said if Corbyn started bringing his dodgy views into his politics I would view him as a bad guy to vote for.

I voted for Labour and if they had won and ended up screwing over the poor and sick etc just as much as Tories. I would then say I enabled them by voting for them, which would then stop me voting for them again. If you carry on voting for a party that does the same thing over and over again, you must at least be ok with turning a blind eye to how they treat a certain group.

(The poor and sick is a example, if I see something I deem as wrong I will call that out as well.)

 

[Whiteley Saint]

That's why I said if Corbyn started bringing his dodgy views into his politics I would view him as a bad guy to vote for.

I voted for Labour and if they had won and ended up screwing over the poor and sick etc just as much as Tories. I would then say I enabled them by voting for them, which would then stop me voting for them again. If you carry on voting for a party that does the same thing over and over again, you must at least be ok with turning a blind eye to how they treat a certain group.

(The poor and sick is a example, if I see something I deem as wrong I will call that out as well.)

I don't think you and I will ever agree about Corbyn.

 

[Beef]

I don't think you and I will ever agree about Corbyn.

I don't see Corbyn as the savior of man that some crazies do. But until he is running the country we have no idea how bad or well he will run the country. If he ****s it up then he should get called out on it. It's why I am not a one party voter.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

I don't see Corbyn as the savior of man that some crazies do. But until he is running the country we have no idea how bad or well he will run the country. If he ****s it up then he should get called out on it. It's why I am not a one party voter.

No I don't understand people who vote for the same party no matter what they do. That's just stupid to me. I listen and make a choice as I see it.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

we are after all human

really don't like this expression, it even comes up in songs, usually as an excuse for cheating on your partner. There are millions of humans that don't do bad things. Those are the humans that I would like being human to be attributed to!

 

[BobbyD]

really don't like this expression, it even comes up in songs, usually as an excuse for cheating on your partner. There are millions of humans that don't do bad things. Those are the humans that I would like being human to be attributed to!

I don't think that's the point particularly.

I think whiteleys point was that theres not 1 human being that is totally good or totally bad. Some more good than bad.

Even then this is from a perspective of who you are thinking from and your moral make up. Take for example a lie. Lying is inherently bad but is it bad to lie to someone if you know that the truth will hurt them? Is it wrong to keep people in the dark if keeps order in the world? Is lying to your mum about going out to a rave where your mum will be worried sick you'll be picked on/assaulted etc a bad thing?

To a animal loving environmentalist, you're evil for eating meat etc etc.

 

[Puck]

Indeed, we are all flawed and we all do things (most of us quite regularly) that some other people simply wouldn't (or at least claim they wouldn't) and most, if not all, of us then find some sort of justification for our actions or simply judge ourselves more charitably than others.

As Bertrand Russell said:

I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool.

I am righteously indignant. You are annoyed. He is making a fuss over nothing.

I have reconsidered the matter. You have changed your mind. He has gone back on his word.

Or as Bernard in Yes Minister said:

I have an independent mind. You are eccentric. He is round the twist.

I give confidential press briefings. You leak. He is being charged under Section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.

 

[Beef]

Trump's Nazi leanings are getting a bit more pronounced every day.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...54409511129088

The myth:

U.S. General John J. Pershing effectively discouraged Muslim terrorists in the Philippines by killing them and burying their bodies along with those of pigs.

Trump's version of the myth.

During a campaign rally in South Carolina, [Donald] Trump told his audience a story about General John Pershing executing Muslim prisoners in the Philippines. Trump said Pershing, in the early 1900’s, “caught 50 terrorists that did tremendous damage and killed many people and he took the 50 terrorists and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood.”

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

 

[The Ides of March]

And when you mention that the English are not the first Britons so they should leave our shores they get totally incensed as they don't know their own history. Show someone a map of Britain with Cornwall marked as West Wales and they get completely enraged. OK, it was about 1000 years ago but I'm more British than any English(man)

But you are a Celt and many a merchant seaman from Spain, Portugal, North Africa, the Middle East would have spread his DNA at any number of seaports in Wales. Come to think of it, they would have done the same in Bristol, Southampton, London. To put it in a nutshell the British are a mongrel nation. And if we compare mongrels to pedigree, mongrels are often stronger and more balanced.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Each to there own, I won't call every Tory voter a twat. Because people vote for whoever helps them the most. But every Tory voter is enabling what the Tories are doing to the sick and poor by getting them into power by voting for them. It maybe simplistic to some, but I would say the same for Labour if they were doing the same if they were in charge.

I have never looked at life as in "that person did a good thing once so that's remember them for it". You have a whole life to do good/bad, not just one thing can define it. If you do equal of each, you should be remembered for both.

A few good noble thoughts there Beef. The only thing I would take issue with is that you say that people vote for what helps them the most. That's a generalisation. There are significant numbers of people who vote for what they perceive as 'the good of the country'. That might mean voting against their own primary interests. There are also people who think they are voting for their own interests, but are entirely misguided by which financial category they believe they fall into, and are actually voting against themselves through ignorance. That happens a lot. The British are an odd breed. We're still a bit too quick to the forelock tug [good for the country [our betters] mentality] forgetting that they are the most important individuals in their lives.