Off Topic Politics Thread

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fatletiss said:
No doubt. My gripe has never been with the function of the NHS nor the frontline people, but the shocking management and distribution of money within it.

I have felt unfortunately that when I have made comment about the NHS here, some people have assumed it a criticism of the organisation. In a politics thread that's what people do; they jump to conclusions.
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The problem has been since someone decided that the NHS should be run akin to a private business, rather than an efficient public service, and once that was set in motion, making it very difficult indeed for that model to be overturned. The NHS isn't a private business. It is a medical centre for the entire nation, from the humblest person to the Queen [if a republican must use her as a symbol that everyone can understand]. And it should be responsibly efficient, and not seek savings to the point where it costs the quality of one individual patient's life. It is the most important of important public services, and should not be ****ed about with in terms of trying to get it to emulate some sort of US insurance model [there have been rumours of plans], even an Obamacare version, by successive Conservative governments. And in modern times, Labour governments haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either, though juggernaut institutions take a lot of turning back around, once set in a direction.
 
TheSecondStain said:
I have considered it myself as a change of pace. Back in the 2000's I thought about buying a houseboat on the Itchen, and I still haven't completely ruled out living abroad on a boat. In the UK it is just simply too sodding cold to live on a boat. You're sitting in the middle of a great heatsink and, unless it is summer, it sucks every last comfortable drop out of the boat. In the Med it is perfectly possible, temperature wise. Even inland waterways in Southern Europe.
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Presumably a boat with a fibre glass hull would be a lot easier to keep warm than a steel hulled barge?
 
TheSecondStain said:
The problem has been since someone decided that the NHS should be run akin to a private business, rather than an efficient public service, and once that was set in motion, making it very difficult indeed for that model to be overturned. The NHS isn't a private business. It is a medical centre for the entire nation, from the humblest person to the Queen [if a republican must use her as a symbol that everyone can understand]. And it should be responsibly efficient, and not seek savings to the point where it costs the quality of one individual patient's life. It is the most important of important public services, and should not be ****ed about with in terms of trying to get it to emulate some sort of US insurance model [there have been rumours of plans], even an Obamacare version, by successive Conservative governments. And in modern times, Labour governments haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either, though juggernaut institutions take a lot of turning back around, once set in a direction.
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That in teh bold is the key point. I totally agree however the problem is each side is not actually fighting for that. Labour just want a no questions asked money drain and Tories want a no money at all spent that needn't be.

The reality is that there is a lot of wastage in the NHS (and all other state run functions) that should be going to the frontline but is being diverted elsewhere within.

The efficiencies of process aren't going to save that much. The real waste is the intentional divertion of funds to investors, outside sourcing, Big Pharma and jobs for the boys. CEO has to resign because she couldn't do the job? No problem we'll create a job for her to move to that wasn't there before! Strange how they need a new position filling that didn't before. This one example was the most blatant creation of "jobs for the boys" that we have ever seen yet it passed despite the scrutiny and is hardly mentioned now.

Maybe the people's audit group can actually get access to the NHS like they can local government. I don;t think much can be saved on the frontline but we should be shifting every amount of wastage elsewhere into the frontline.

Of course there would then be temptations by the Tory party to use savings in other departments instead of reallocating that money to the frontline but that is a different matter.

It's the old too many chiefs and not enough Indians argument. And we can include in that chiefs part the vast cost of doing simple things because of the beaurocracy of the backroom.

It should be simple to just look at the process and ask "why are we paying so much for this medicine contract when it would be cheaper to buy it from Tesco."

It shouldn't run like a private business because as ISIRTP said the other week there is no profit driver however there should be some drive to question process and cost of things. Addressing why each process costs so much is not cost cutting. It is eliminating wastage and those savings should then be directly reallocated to the frontline.

That pdf on Lambeth council is the same story. Paying £4k for things that should have been £2-3k en masse = billions of state funds diverted into the hands of the plc's and government contracts are the holy grail because it seems you can tender whatever you want and if it goes over you just charge the extra. Even if it doesn't go over then just pretend it has gone over and charge more.

We should be draining the swamp. We can't continue year after year, decade after decade investigating things then drawing up plans that can be sold as closing loopholes when the reality is they just change the way it happens and the money keeps being wasted.
 
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TheSecondStain said:
Well indeed, there is that, but there are several steel French barges that are moored up on French inland waterways. The French canal system connects Northern Europe with the Mediterranean, IIRC. To me that is rather appealing.
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Prunella Scales/Tim West did a TV trip through the French canal System, as did Rick Stein. Excellent viewing, both.
 
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TheSecondStain said:
Well indeed, there is that, but there are several steel French barges that are moored up on French inland waterways. The French canal system connects Northern Europe with the Mediterranean, IIRC. To me that is rather appealing.
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I can thoroughly recommend a great book with the intriguing title of "Narrow Dog to Carcassonne" by Terry Darlington, which is the story of a couple of narrow boat enthusiasts from the north of England, who, with their narrow dog, decided to sail their canal boat across the English Channel and down through the French canal network to the South of France. Everyone thought they were barking mad , including the dog, but it's a great read.
 
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ImpSaint said:
You mean like presidential decree that Obama used at will and Macron is planning to utilise constantly?

I do agree with you that any change that isn't minor (like the road widening above) should go through parliament but I can't remember people moaning when Obama was bypassing "government" to push through what he wanted.

Not something we want over here.

It could well be something they put in there to concede amendments to. They often add stuff in to "soak up" the amendments and then end up with the paper they likely would have wanted in the first place.
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Who could possibly object to anything Obama instituted by decree apart from rascist Republicans? Whereas with Trump, it is a different matter as the man is a total idiot!!
 
Chancellor Philip Hammond 'says public sector workers overpaid'

Philip Hammond is at the centre of a furious row with his own Cabinet colleagues after it was claimed he told them public sector workers were overpaid.

According to The Sunday Times, at last Tuesday's meeting the Chancellor refused to lift the controversial 1% cap on wages for public sector workers because they receive bigger pensions.

"Public sector workers are overpaid when you take into account pensions," he is reported to have said, before saying train drivers were "ludicrously overpaid".

His comments have emerged after senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

The TUC calculates the real-terms wages of prison officers, paramedics and NHS dieticians are all down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago. Firefighters are down nearly £2,900 and teachers £2,500

Source: http://news.sky.com/story/chancellor...rpaid-10950268
 
Beefy said:
Chancellor Philip Hammond 'says public sector workers overpaid'

Philip Hammond is at the centre of a furious row with his own Cabinet colleagues after it was claimed he told them public sector workers were overpaid.

According to The Sunday Times, at last Tuesday's meeting the Chancellor refused to lift the controversial 1% cap on wages for public sector workers because they receive bigger pensions.

"Public sector workers are overpaid when you take into account pensions," he is reported to have said, before saying train drivers were "ludicrously overpaid".

His comments have emerged after senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

The TUC calculates the real-terms wages of prison officers, paramedics and NHS dieticians are all down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago. Firefighters are down nearly £2,900 and teachers £2,500

Source: http://news.sky.com/story/chancellor...rpaid-10950268
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Of course he's right about one section of the public sector, MPs!
13% pay rise over the last 3yrs.
Oh, and any MP for 5yrs+ will get a bigger pension than my wife with her 35yrs contributions as a NHS nurse. Seems fair.

I wish when playing the "compared to the private sector" card the public are reminded there is NO direct comparison. How many private firefighters/police/armed forces are the public relying on?
Even non NHS nursing staff are being offered pay rates far more generous than paid by the state, a source of much resentment as Trusts are increasingly forced to employ them to fill gaps.
 
greensaint said:
Of course he's right about one section of the public sector, MPs!
13% pay rise over the last 3yrs.
Oh, and any MP for 5yrs+ will get a bigger pension than my wife with her 35yrs contributions as a NHS nurse. Seems fair.

I wish when playing the "compared to the private sector" card the public are reminded there is NO direct comparison. How many private firefighters/police/armed forces are the public relying on?
Even non NHS nursing staff are being offered pay rates far more generous than paid by the state, a source of much resentment as Trusts are increasingly forced to employ them to fill gaps.
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Don't forget MPs "parachute" payments when they get voted out!!!!
 
greensaint said:
Of course he's right about one section of the public sector, MPs!
13% pay rise over the last 3yrs.
Oh, and any MP for 5yrs+ will get a bigger pension than my wife with her 35yrs contributions as a NHS nurse. Seems fair.

I wish when playing the "compared to the private sector" card the public are reminded there is NO direct comparison. How many private firefighters/police/armed forces are the public relying on?
Even non NHS nursing staff are being offered pay rates far more generous than paid by the state, a source of much resentment as Trusts are increasingly forced to employ them to fill gaps.
Click to expand...
Carers in private nursing homes are on minimum wage usually. That is less than Band 2 or 3 HCA's in the NHS. I agree with your general point though.
 
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