Off Topic Politics Thread

[Archers Road]

But yeah, let's all criticise the one person who's said they want to agree something and remove people's uncertainty.

So if those are really Theresa Mays intentions, why not just accept the ammendment when the Bill returns the commons? Could save everyone, herself included, an awful lot of trouble that way.

Or are you suggesting we do nothing until we get a lead from Angela Merkel?

 

[Puck]

So if those are really Theresa Mays intentions, why not just accept the ammendment when the Bill returns the commons? Could save everyone, herself included, an awful lot of trouble that way.

Or are you suggesting we do nothing until we get a lead from Angela Merkel?

Merkel wouldn't be taking the lead though would she? She would be agreeing to something Theresa May has already proposed.

Why not accept the amendment? Simple. The primary responsibilities of the UK government are the safety and security of our borders and the rights of UK citizens. The UK government should secure the rights of UK citizens abroad before (or ideally at the same time as) it guarantees the rights of EU citizens in the UK. The situation of EU citizens in the UK is essentially the same as the situation of UK citizens in the EU and it seems logical that both should be dealt with at the same time. There is no reason that couldn't be done and Theresa May has expressed a willingness to do this. Other EU leaders have hidden behind the "negotiations haven't started" line.

So for me, if you're concerned about the rights of Germans (or Spaniards or Latvians) in the UK you should be asking what the German (or Spanish or Latvian) government is doing to help them. The UK government suggested doing a deal to resolve this months ago. Why aren't these other governments taking up that offer?

 

[TheSecondStain]

The longer they argue the toss over the details the happier I'll be. They can debate for decades as far as I'm concerned. Can't leave the EU if they don't get things sorted. By that time the old people who voted to leave and gave a majority of less than 4% will have well and truly passed on and it'll be a ridiculous issue to continue with.

 

[Archers Road]

Merkel wouldn't be taking the lead though would she? She would be agreeing to something Theresa May has already proposed.

Why not accept the amendment? Simple. The primary responsibilities of the UK government are the safety and security of our borders and the rights of UK citizens. The UK government should secure the rights of UK citizens abroad before (or ideally at the same time as) it guarantees the rights of EU citizens in the UK. The situation of EU citizens in the UK is essentially the same as the situation of UK citizens in the EU and it seems logical that both should be dealt with at the same time. There is no reason that couldn't be done and Theresa May has expressed a willingness to do this. Other EU leaders have hidden behind the "negotiations haven't started" line.

So for me, if you're concerned about the rights of Germans (or Spaniards or Latvians) in the UK you should be asking what the German (or Spanish or Latvian) government is doing to help them. The UK government suggested doing a deal to resolve this months ago. Why aren't these other governments taking up that offer?

When these Germans, Spaniards or Latvians moved here and began contributing to the UK economy, they did so as citizens of the European Union, of which the UK was a member. I can't accept your view that our government has no responsibility towards them now that it seems we are about to leave that union. Until recently their right to be here was not in question, and in my opinion any civilised society would guarantee that those rights should continue for those who are already here.

We are talking about residents who in many cases have put down roots in this country, who have, for example, children at school here. Maybe to you they are easily classified foreigners and therefore not your concern; some of them are my friends and neighbours.

 

[Onionman]

Some sort of guarantee for citizens living abroad should probably be included in the leaving process to be honest but this stuff about "negotiations haven't started" is nonsense. If Merkel and co wanted an early agreement then there would be an early agreement. You could easily justify it on the grounds that it is a high priority issue that's causing concern and uncertainty for people across the EU. Or, if you prefer, on the grounds that "common decency" requires it.

If the UK is able to guarantee the status of EU nationals in the UK at this point then there is nothing stopping other EU governments making a similar promise for UK citizens living in their countries. If Angela Merkel is able to say her country will accept a million refugees from Syria then she there is nothing to stop her saying UK citizens will be allowed to stay after Brexit. She won't do that though because she's facing an election and that would not be popular with her supporters.

But yeah, let's all criticise the one person who's said they want to agree something and remove people's uncertainty.

No they can't. They absolutely cannot. They would be breaking EU law if they did so, which would just mean a fee frenzy for lawyers acting for special interest groups.

Vin

 

[Missing Lambo]

The longer they argue the toss over the details the happier I'll be. They can debate for decades as far as I'm concerned. Can't leave the EU if they don't get things sorted. By that time the old people who voted to leave and gave a majority of less than 4% will have well and truly passed on and it'll be a ridiculous issue to continue with.

I appreciate the sentiment, but this is a little naive, I think. As I understand it once this 50cc Honda thing passes over Westminster Bridge there is no turning back and we have to leave after two years whether there is a deal or not and we are going to pay a fortune to do so. Of course I don't know, and this puts me on a par with our politicians. Great this Brexit lark. I am ashamed I didn't vote for it. BTW, I fall into your older voter category, SS. Be careful, sonny!

 

[Puck]

When these Germans, Spaniards or Latvians moved here and began contributing to the UK economy, they did so as citizens of the European Union, of which the UK was a member. I can't accept your view that our government has no responsibility towards them now that it seems we are about to leave that union. Until recently their right to be here was not in question, and in my opinion any civilised society would guarantee that those rights should continue for those who are already here.

We are talking about residents who in many cases have put down roots in this country, who have, for example, children at school here. Maybe to you they are easily classified foreigners and therefore not your concern; some of them are my friends and neighbours.

Either you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said or you lack comprehension skills. I didn't say the UK government has no responsibility to EU citizens living in the UK; I said the UK government has a greater responsibility to UK citizens living abroad than it does to citizens of other countries. That's how nation states work. I also suggested that the ideal solution would be for the UK government to allow EU citizens to remain here and other EU nations to allow UK citizens to remain there.

The UK government has expressed a desire to resolve this issue. Other nations have refused to do so. The nations that refuse to address the issue deserve more criticism than the nation that is prepared to.

 

[Puck]

No they can't. They absolutely cannot. They would be breaking EU law if they did so, which would just mean a fee frenzy for lawyers acting for special interest groups.

Vin

If the German government wanted to it could guarantee that UK citizens living in Germany will be allowed to remain there when (and if) the UK leaves the EU. The French government could say the same about France, the Spanish government about Spain etc etc. There would be nothing illegal about that. Yet we don't hear people criticising the governments of those countries for not doing this.

 

[Onionman]

If the German government wanted to it could guarantee that UK citizens living in Germany will be allowed to remain there when (and if) the UK leaves the EU. The French government could say the same about France, the Spanish government about Spain etc etc. There would be nothing illegal about that. Yet we don't hear people criticising the governments of those countries for not doing this.

I rarely say this but you are wrong. EU member state governments are forbidden to make any arrangements on their own on this matter.

Vin

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Either you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said or you lack comprehension skills. I didn't say the UK government has no responsibility to EU citizens living in the UK; I said the UK government has a greater responsibility to UK citizens living abroad than it does to citizens of other countries. That's how nation states work. I also suggested that the ideal solution would be for the UK government to allow EU citizens to remain here and other EU nations to allow UK citizens to remain there.

Good idea. You could say the same thing for goods as well. The UK has a responsibility towards their own people and economy first, but it is probably better for everyone if there is free trade instead of two sides tariff-ing the **** out of each other. Environmental laws is another good one. UK shouldn't agree not to pollute unless they get a promise from other countries that they won't as well. But in the end it's better to have everyone agree not to do it.

If only there were some kind of framework you could put in place that would guarantee free movement of people, capital, goods and services and uniformity in international agreements. I wish someone had thought of that.

 

[Puck]

I rarely say this but you are wrong. EU member state governments are forbidden to make any arrangements on their own on this matter.

Vin

I would need to check that (hard while typing on my phone at work) but, if true, it's another ludicrous rule and another reason we're better off outside the EU. Regardless, if the leaders of the EU member states really wanted to come to an agreement they could do so, even if it meant changing the law itself.

 

[Onionman]

I would need to check that (hard while typing on my phone at work) but, if true, it's another ludicrous rule and another reason we're better off outside the EU. Regardless, if the leaders of the EU member states really wanted to come to an agreement they could do so, even if it meant changing the law itself.

Do you seriously think that individual members of a free trade area should be free to change how they deal with outsiders as they wish? I know there's some kind of inherent desire on some people's behalf to paint the EU as barmy but that's a basic requirement of pooled sovereignty. It's as sensible as suggesting that Germany should be allowed to organise it's own deal with the USA on car sales. It negates one of the main purposes of free trade areas. You trade as a bloc and have the negotiating power of the bloc.

We're about to find out just how much bloc power we've given up (not brought home, given up) when we go into the ring with US negotiators.

Vin.

 

[Puck]

Do you seriously think that individual members of a free trade area should be free to change how they deal with outsiders as they wish? I know there's some kind of inherent desire on some people's behalf to paint the EU as barmy but that's a basic requirement of pooled sovereignty. It's as sensible as suggesting that Germany should be allowed to organise it's own deal with the USA on car sales. It negates one of the main purposes of free trade areas. You trade as a bloc and have the negotiating power of the bloc.

We're about to find out just how much bloc power we've given up (not brought home, given up) when we go into the ring with US negotiators.

Vin.

I seriously think that it's already the case that not all EU members have the same immigration rules.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

It negates one of the main purposes of free trade areas. You trade as a bloc and have the negotiating power of the bloc.

Yeah, that's kind of the weird thing about what's going on.

With the US getting all protectionist/isolationist this would actually be a great opportunity for UK/EU to gain some market power at our expense. But if you all split yourselves up, then the US is still the biggest kid on the block and we will get away with it.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Yeah, that's kind of the weird thing about what's going on.

With the US getting all protectionist/isolationist this would actually be a great opportunity for UK/EU to gain some market power at our expense. But if you all split yourselves up, then the US is still the biggest kid on the block and we will get away with it.

I'm sure they will. The UK are masters at shooting themselves in the foot. If there's a way to fail, a UK government will find it.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Just read this thread and I wondered whether people realised that EU nationals who have lived in the UK for five years can gain automatic permanent residency status under the EU laws we are bound by. Therefore if they have put down roots as has been mentioned they can stay, no questions asked, they just need to apply which they have been doing since June. Obviously, as you would expect, they have to show they have been here for the required time. The uncertainty faces those who have not been here for long i.e less than 5 years. The same is for UK citizens in the EU. As Puck has said our Government has been trying to sort this out but other countries will not make the commitment until Article 50 is triggered. All 27 would need to commit.

 

[tiggermaster]

I've got Sylvia Syms playing Maggie May, Sid James playing Boris and Kenneth Williams playing Michael Gove in 'Carry on up the Brexit'. Come on guys and girls THIS IS THE LEVEL IT'S AT.... It's **** and it's coming to a neighbourhood near you very soon. It won't get an Oscar because PWH will obviously f*** it up. Whats new???????

 

[The Ides of March]

When these Germans, Spaniards or Latvians moved here and began contributing to the UK economy, they did so as citizens of the European Union, of which the UK was a member. I can't accept your view that our government has no responsibility towards them now that it seems we are about to leave that union. Until recently their right to be here was not in question, and in my opinion any civilised society would guarantee that those rights should continue for those who are already here.

We are talking about residents who in many cases have put down roots in this country, who have, for example, children at school here. Maybe to you they are easily classified foreigners and therefore not your concern; some of them are my friends and neighbours.

To me most people in Fareham are foreign in the sense of being strange and having rather archaic attitudes. People in Reading are most forward in their attitude and thinking because it has that intellectual core, high value high tech services and industries. SE Hampshire's economy is largely service oriented to serve the defence of the realm. If Portsmouth could get that yoke off its back and grow commercially, it would be better for the city and region.

 

[Onionman]

Peter Serafinowicz is making YouTube videos with Trump's real words but overdubbed in a slightly improved voice. You'll get the gist:

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Vin

 

[The Ides of March]

As our wonderful Government embarks on a course for Brexit it would be useful to find out if the British will need to apply for visas to visit countries where we have hardl needed a passport. The reason I ask is because I needed a visa to come to Russia, and as a UK subject have had to pay far more than if I were a German or Spaniard (their nationals belong to the Schengen groups of countries and have a common system for visa applications). Why didn't our Government at the time or subsequently join?