Off Topic Politics Thread

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Archers Road said:
It was almost certainly made clear to him before the referendum that his contribution would be counterproductive. Whether it's fair or not, an endorsement from Tony Blair is pretty much the kiss of death to any political campaign. I'm not sure why he thinks people will listen to him now, but perhaps he thinks he has to try.
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True. And it was the case that a few days after the EU vote he started to make his opinions known, behind the scenes. I must say that us forgotten 48.1% need all the representation we can get.

He was the only public figure to question the so-called 'clear message sent by the British people'. A majority of just over half of the electorate, significant numbers of which voted to leave as a protest only, but never actually meant it, is not a clear message.
 
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Onionman said:
I'm replying because I want to "like" the fact that you've brought it up but I can't bring myself to click "like".

I'd like to say that he's an idiot but he's not. This is all part of the same deliberate effort to undermine totally any news organisation that isn't mindlessly telling their customers that he's a demigod. Once he's done that, once he's utterly destroyed any faith the public had in organisations like the CNN/ABC/BBC, he'll be able to do ANYTHING he wants and his supporters will hear no-one telling them what the world thinks of |Trump. Dangerous guy. Bad hombre. Bad dude. Very bad.

Vin
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Thanks, Vin. Glad you can see this too. Everyone thinks Trump is just a buffoon, but it goes much deeper than that. He's discrediting anyone against him and the blind supporters are lapping it up. What's next? All muslims to wear a crescent moon sign on their clothes to distinguish them?
All this "fake" news bullshit - now there are loads of Americans believing things that never happened, like the supposed massacre ...... and if they're told enough times that CNN, BBC, etc are making things up and they should only watch Fox News, they will ......
Scary - very scary ........
 
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davecg69 said:
Thanks, Vin. Glad you can see this too. Everyone thinks Trump is just a buffoon, but it goes much deeper than that. He's discrediting anyone against him and the blind supporters are lapping it up. What's next? All muslims to wear a crescent moon sign on their clothes to distinguish them?
All this "fake" news bullshit - now there are loads of Americans believing things that never happened, like the supposed massacre ...... and if they're told enough times that CNN, BBC, etc are making things up and they should only watch Fox News, they will ......
Scary - very scary ........
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And Fox News, owned by 20th Century Fox, but founded by that wonderful man, and current Fox News CEO, Rupert Murdoch, actually DO make up the news on occasion.
 
davecg69 said:
All this "fake" news bullshit - now there are loads of Americans believing things that never happened, like the supposed massacre ...... and if they're told enough times that CNN, BBC, etc are making things up and they should only watch Fox News, they will ......
Scary - very scary ........
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Fox News would actually be a massive improvement for some of these people. Shep Smith and Megyn Kelly are not exactly neutral, but at least they are (or were, since Kelly is leaving) willing to stand up and have some limits on the BS. People are reading joke sites like Breitbart and Infowars.

The reason why I point out that Trump is a clown is not to say that the Trump administration is harmless. Far from it. I'm saying that IMO the real danger is the people advising Trump and the far right movement as a whole. Getting rid of Trump could actually make the situation worse because the really dangerous people are looking to take advantage of the power vacuum. It would not surprise me at all, if some of these leaks are coming from Bannon and others in that camp to undercut Trump now and cause more chaos.
 
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Just been watching yesterday's press conference. You're all giving him way to much credit. The guy is insane, and there does not appear to be any method in his madness. He is proper nuts, ga-ga, Radio Rental. Clueless, useless, doomed, but obviously still dangerous. He clearly does not know wtf he is doing.

You do have to wonder though, what has happened to US democracy, that people have elected this idiot.
 
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Archers Road said:
Just been watching yesterday's press conference. You're all giving him way to much credit. The guy is insane, and there does not appear to be any method in his madness. He is proper nuts, ga-ga, Radio Rental. Clueless, useless, doomed, but obviously still dangerous. He clearly does not know wtf he is doing.

You do have to wonder though, what has happened to US democracy, that people have elected this idiot.
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There may be something in what you say...

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I didn't believe it either so here he is

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Vin
 
I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
The reason why I point out that Trump is a clown is not to say that the Trump administration is harmless. Far from it. I'm saying that IMO the real danger is the people advising Trump and the far right movement as a whole. Getting rid of Trump could actually make the situation worse because the really dangerous people are looking to take advantage of the power vacuum. It would not surprise me at all, if some of these leaks are coming from Bannon and others in that camp to undercut Trump now and cause more chaos.
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You're not the first person on here to suggest something like this. I still don't see it. I don't see how chaos benefits Bannon (or any others in Trump's camp). Assuming Bannon (or someone similar) is able to manipulate Trump then surely it's in their interests for him to appear capable and for his Presidency to be organised and able to implement the policies they want implemented? You don't get your willing puppet elected and then create chaos around him which makes him look incompetent. You make him look good.

It just makes no sense to me. What's the idea here? What's the plan? How does undercutting Trump benefit Bannon? How would "getting rid" of his puppet benefit Bannon? How does chaos and Trump's administration appearing incompetent benefit Bannon? Assuming someone is able to "get rid" of Trump how does this create a power vacuum? US law is pretty clear that in that scenario Mike Pence would become President. Pence is (relative to Bannon or Trump) a mainstream Republican. There are currently rumours that Pence is trying to get rid of Bannon. Whether or not that's true I don't know but I'm pretty sure Bannon wouldn't find Pence anywhere near as accommodating or easy to manipulate as Trump. Of course, in theory Pence could be "got rid of" at the same time, in which case we're in somewhat uncharted territory but my understanding is that Paul Ryan would then become President. I'm not going to consider the possibility that Ryan is also "got rid of" because it seems to me that at that point we're entering the realms of fantasy.
 
Because Trump is an extremely blunt instrument. He is decidely not capable, nor is he able to appear capable in a Presidential sense.

That press conference was essential Trump. Bragging about his electoral win, not knowing the facts, etc. Most of the world thought that was an utter **** show. The only people who didn't are his supporters. And the reason why they don't think that was because all they cared about was that he was attacking the media. So, you need all this chaos and confrontation to feed Trump and Trump supporters.

The other part of it is like, Trump was going to appoint Harward as the head of NSC. Harward is actually extremely qualified. But Harward didn't want to take the job. So the crazier the administration, the less competent and centrist type people will want to serve in it. And that means Bannon gets more influence.

The people behind Trump need this chaos. But by definition, chaos is very hard to control. At some point-- by Bannon's own words-- the whole thing gets burned to the ground and that's what he is waiting for to make his move. They are just trying to time all this stuff so they can get the dominoes set up and be ready when the time comes.
 
Archers Road said:
Just been watching yesterday's press conference. You're all giving him way to much credit. The guy is insane, and there does not appear to be any method in his madness. He is proper nuts, ga-ga, Radio Rental. Clueless, useless, doomed, but obviously still dangerous. He clearly does not know wtf he is doing.

You do have to wonder though, what has happened to US democracy, that people have elected this idiot.
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100%.

I have to go there in 12 days to see my daughter and grandson - I wouldn't otherwise. Why has happened to the 'land of the free'. The worrying thing is my daughter and son in law love him? Really!?! I think they must see something different that side of the atlantic...lots of tongue biting for two weeks I think....
 
I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
Because Trump is an extremely blunt instrument. He is decidely not capable, nor is he able to appear capable in a Presidential sense.

That press conference was essential Trump. Bragging about his electoral win, not knowing the facts, etc. Most of the world thought that was an utter **** show. The only people who didn't are his supporters. And the reason why they don't think that was because all they cared about was that he was attacking the media. So, you need all this chaos and confrontation to feed Trump and Trump supporters.

The other part of it is like, Trump was going to appoint Harward as the head of NSC. Harward is actually extremely qualified. But Harward didn't want to take the job. So the crazier the administration, the less competent and centrist type people will want to serve in it. And that means Bannon gets more influence.

The people behind Trump need this chaos. But by definition, chaos is very hard to control. At some point-- by Bannon's own words-- the whole thing gets burned to the ground and that's what he is waiting for to make his move. They are just trying to time all this stuff so they can get the dominoes set up and be ready when the time comes.
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So Trump and his administration look incompetent and as a result he decides to rely even more on the people making the decisions? Some people will decide they don't want to serve in his administration but that doesn't necessarily mean Bannon gets more power. If enough people refuse to serve and cite Bannon as a reason why Trump may get rid of Bannon. As I said there are already rumours Pence wants Bannon out so he may be pushing for that as well.

You haven't really answered the questions though. I was hoping for an answer containing possible events that might take place. "At some point the whole thing gets burned to the ground" sounds ominous. Very dramatic and exciting but what does that look like? What does that mean in practical terms? In what sort of circumstances is Bannon able to "make his move"? You suggested getting rid of Trump might make things worse. Are we talking impeachment? Assassination? Is one of those a situation where Bannon can "make his move"?

"Bannon is waiting to make his move" is also interesting. What is this move? How does he make it? He's already in a pretty powerful position as one of the closest advisors - if not THE closest advisor - to a President and you seem to believe he's able to manipulate Trump reasonably well. Yet at the same time you're suggesting he's prepared to throw Trump under the bus - and risk losing the power he already has - in hopes of obtaining even more. What is the realistic mechanism by which Bannon can become more powerful than he already is? Even if Trump surrounds himself with people who agree with Bannon, how are they going to pass the laws that they want passed? Executive Orders can only do so much and even then (as we've seen) the courts can step in and block them when they go too far. For all the noise around Trump he's actually not done very much so far.
 
Puck said:
So Trump and his administration look incompetent and as a result he decides to rely even more on the people making the decisions? Some people will decide they don't want to serve in his administration but that doesn't necessarily mean Bannon gets more power. If enough people refuse to serve and cite Bannon as a reason why Trump may get rid of Bannon. As I said there are already rumours Pence wants Bannon out so he may be pushing for that as well.

You haven't really answered the questions though. I was hoping for an answer containing possible events that might take place. "At some point the whole thing gets burned to the ground" sounds ominous. Very dramatic and exciting but what does that look like? What does that mean in practical terms? In what sort of circumstances is Bannon able to "make his move"? You suggested getting rid of Trump might make things worse. Are we talking impeachment? Assassination? Is one of those a situation where Bannon can "make his move"?

"Bannon is waiting to make his move" is also interesting. What is this move? How does he make it? He's already in a pretty powerful position as one of the closest advisors - if not THE closest advisor - to a President and you seem to believe he's able to manipulate Trump reasonably well. Yet at the same time you're suggesting he's prepared to throw Trump under the bus - and risk losing the power he already has - in hopes of obtaining even more. What is the realistic mechanism by which Bannon can become more powerful than he already is? Even if Trump surrounds himself with people who agree with Bannon, how are they going to pass the laws that they want passed? Executive Orders can only do so much and even then (as we've seen) the courts can step in and block them when they go too far. For all the noise around Trump he's actually not done very much so far.
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I don't know how many ways I can explain this.

Trump is a child emperor. Therefore the REAL battle for power was not the election, but what is going on behind the scenes now. This is why you have Conway saying one thing, and then fifteen minutes later Spicer says the opposite. McCain just blasted the President from his own party in front of the whole world. That's unheard of. Flynn himself has strongly hinted that he was backed stabbed by someone in the administration. Cabinet secretaries are not being allowed to hire their own staff.

Trump has the same support of the same 35% of people he always had and no one more. These people do not give a **** what he does so long as he kicks out all the foreigners and brown-skinned people. Russia is interfering with the election? No problem, they're white.

Those 35% do not support the GOP at large, and certainly not the establishment GOP. OTOH, they don't really care as long as America is made white again. So virtually everything other than pro-racism thinly veiled as "nationalism" is up for grabs.

For all of Trump's talk about being an outsider, he's basically just pushing a vanilla right agenda so far, while relentlessly attacking the left. Everyone on the right can agree on that. But that will only get you so far. At some point after you repeal ACA and virtually everything else vaguely leftist, then you have to replace them. Once you do,now you are on the hot seat.
 
Whiteley Saint said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39016179
'Dutch populist leader Geert Wilders has launched his election campaign by calling some Moroccans "scum".'
All the nutters are worryingly coming out of the shadows.
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Yes, it is a dangerous political time for the western world. If the likes of ISIS and Al Qaeda ever wanted to make progress and disruption they've certainly achieved it by polarising political opinion in the West. We've fallen hook, line and sinker into their trap. They could hardly have played us better, and we could hardly have been more stupid. From now on it'll be so much easier for them to recruit.

I hope this era is just a blip in history and that people will return to rational thinking, but I'm not feeling too positive about it.
 
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I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
I don't know how many ways I can explain this.

Trump is a child emperor. Therefore the REAL battle for power was not the election, but what is going on behind the scenes now. This is why you have Conway saying one thing, and then fifteen minutes later Spicer says the opposite. McCain just blasted the President from his own party in front of the whole world. That's unheard of. Flynn himself has strongly hinted that he was backed stabbed by someone in the administration. Cabinet secretaries are not being allowed to hire their own staff.

Trump has the same support of the same 35% of people he always had and no one more. These people do not give a **** what he does so long as he kicks out all the foreigners and brown-skinned people. Russia is interfering with the election? No problem, they're white.

Those 35% do not support the GOP at large, and certainly not the establishment GOP. OTOH, they don't really care as long as America is made white again. So virtually everything other than pro-racism thinly veiled as "nationalism" is up for grabs.

For all of Trump's talk about being an outsider, he's basically just pushing a vanilla right agenda so far, while relentlessly attacking the left. Everyone on the right can agree on that. But that will only get you so far. At some point after you repeal ACA and virtually everything else vaguely leftist, then you have to replace them. Once you do,now you are on the hot seat.
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So your theory is that 35% of the American population (presumably mainly whites so, what, half the white population of America?) is not just racist but SO racist they don't care about anything - even Russian interference in the Presidential election! - except kicking out foreigners and non-whites? That's a pretty wild claim.

I get your theory about Trump being an essentially empty vessel into which others are trying to pour their ideas. I don't necessarily agree with it but I don't think either of us can know for sure so I'm putting that to one side. I just don't agree that Bannon causing chaos within - and ultimately paralysing - the Trump administration (deliberately or otherwise) helps him or strengthens his position or Trump's. The risks of deliberately destabilising the government are high and the possible gains are minimal. Causing chaos in the government just makes it harder for Trump and his people to do anything and Trump is basically Bannon's only chance (a pretty slim chance) of achieving any of the things he wants to achieve.

There's also the fact that if Bannon is the mastermind we're supposed to believe he is then he must know the US isn't like Game of Thrones (or Nazi Germany for that matter). The whole system of government is set up to stop a crazy or incompetent leader from doing too much damage. Bannon the mastermind must know that even if he was able to spread chaos and somehow become Trump's only/chief advisor that doesn't mean they can do very much. Trump can't just issue whatever decrees he likes from the White House; he has to work with Congress and he also has to work within the law - we've already seen one of his executive orders blocked by the courts and that was nowhere near as extreme as any of the stuff you've suggested here. If the politicians in Congress become convinced the Trump government is incompetent then his chances of working them to get anything done diminish drastically and if (when) he doesn't deliver on his promises he will become much less popular, just as Obama did.
 
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