Off Topic Politics Thread

[Beef]

The point is a similar one to which I pointed out either just before or just after our referendum about UKIP. That if people just keep labelling things they don't like with a broad brush then they will be seeing UKIP vote counts rise. We just saw what happened in the US because of this.

The answer I got back then on UKIP was "If people want to vote for that racist party" then let them blah bah. This attitude does not help anything. Similarly here and with Trump. It is the left's acceptable form of identity politics. Attack the figurehead and completely ignore the real issues and the real problems.

Puck is right on the point of the article. Yet again it is a case of "playing the man not the ball" and that will not ever deal with the issues or problems that is causing people to vote in favour of these parties/movements/people. You can't just narrow this down to a public mistrust of foreigners or muslims or elites etc. There is much much more to it than that and all the time we focus on trying to attack the "messenger" it does nothing about the "message" because someone else will just pop up with the same "message."

The reality is that there is nothing wrong with the message. There is a lot wrong with the angle and delivery of the message which is what you all disagree with. Different messengers deliver it differently from their own angle but it is the same overall message. It isn't all about populism unless you want to say Cameron and Blair and Obama were populists. That is just the latest label to go after the messenger. That is just the latest label to go after the messenger.

It is time to take our fingers out of our ears, uncover our eyes and stop refuse to concede any ground because this isn't about others trying to take over. It is more about so many people refusing to accept that there is any other viewpoint at all and that nothing must change at all. That will only result in much more that we achieved being lost in the end rather than some concessions and then be able to move forward again at a rate that takes people with them instead of leaving them behind. This isn't just about rustbelt or Northern industrial jobs. That is a media coined phrase. It is all about feeling alienated from your own society because the past 30 years of politicians have moved to quickly onward and not taken half of their electorate with them because of the speed they moved forward.

Now I am sure that there will be replies that attack this as being bad and focus on x issue or y issue which I will agree with. However it isn;t about x and y issue. It is about the whole alphabet in capitals and then in lower case as well of issues and it has been too fast for a lot of people to take.

Brexit and the Trump campaign were run on racist bigotted views. Any one who voted for them either is racist or enabled a racist. I have a friend who is unable to work due to sickness and feels like he is treated like ****. He gets paid hardly anything, yet he still didn't vote for Brexit as a protest vote.

So sorry I won't be trying to hear the people that said they voted for Brexit as they felt left behind.

 

[ImpSaint]

Brexit and the Trump campaign were run on racist bigotted views. Any one who voted for them either is racist or enabled a racist. I have a friend who is unable to work due to sickness and feels like he is treated like ****. He gets paid hardly anything, yet he still didn't vote for Brexit as a protest vote.

So sorry I won't be trying to hear the people that said they voted for Brexit as they felt left behind.

You are sticking your fingers in your ears Beefy. Being left behind does not just mean losing a job that is outdated and you are still going on about protest vote. That is a single angle. Do you also think the Tory vote in 2015 was a protest vote? You can go on all day finding singular things that are wrong and I might agree with you on most of them. Where we differ is the way we see links between them or not.

2015 - Tories increase their majority in the house. Something that was seen as almost impossible until the results came in. Was that because of racists?

You can't choose the referendum to cite a "racist" theme and ignore the 2015 election result.

 

[Beef]

You are sticking your fingers in your ears Beefy. Being left behind does not just mean losing a job that is outdated and you are still going on about protest vote. That is a single angle. Do you also think the Tory vote in 2015 was a protest vote? You can go on all day finding singular things that are wrong and I might agree with you on most of them. Where we differ is the way we see links between them or not.

2015 - Tories increase their majority in the house. Something that was seen as almost impossible until the results came in. Was that because of racists?

You can't choose the referendum to cite a "racist" theme and ignore the 2015 election result.

Nope I am not sticking my fingers in my ears. I also know being left behind doesn't mean being in a outdated job, hence why I said about my friend.

At the end of the day Brexit voters and Trump voters along with other voters that vote for clear racist propaganda are either enabling racists or racists themselves. I will not give them the time of day. The people that deserve my time are the people that are poor as hell or treated like **** that don't spring on the side of the first racist bigot that says they will help them.

 

[Archers Road]

You are sticking your fingers in your ears Beefy. Being left behind does not just mean losing a job that is outdated and you are still going on about protest vote. That is a single angle. Do you also think the Tory vote in 2015 was a protest vote? You can go on all day finding singular things that are wrong and I might agree with you on most of them. Where we differ is the way we see links between them or not.

2015 - Tories increase their majority in the house. Something that was seen as almost impossible until the results came in. Was that because of racists?

You can't choose the referendum to cite a "racist" theme and ignore the 2015 election result.

Yeah, we know Imps...

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[ImpSaint]

You miss the whole point warbling on about stupid thicko racist turkeys voting for Christmas. Lincolnshire isn't a rich area yet outside of the mini metropolitan and relatively rich (compared to the rest of Lincolnshire) centre of Lincoln the rest of the turkeys didn't even vote for Blair and remained blue all through his "reign."

Unless you think the rich landowners in Lincolnshire controlled the peasants vote there or maybe the Russians had a hand in that.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Brexit and the Trump campaign were run on racist bigotted views. Any one who voted for them either is racist or enabled a racist. I have a friend who is unable to work due to sickness and feels like he is treated like ****. He gets paid hardly anything, yet he still didn't vote for Brexit as a protest vote.

So sorry I won't be trying to hear the people that said they voted for Brexit as they felt left behind.

Out of interest, racist against whom?

 

[Beef]

You miss the whole point warbling on about stupid thicko racist turkeys voting for Christmas. Lincolnshire isn't a rich area yet outside of the mini metropolitan and relatively rich (compared to the rest of Lincolnshire) centre of Lincoln the rest of the turkeys didn't even vote for Blair and remained blue all through his "reign."

Unless you think the rich landowners in Lincolnshire controlled the peasants vote there or maybe the Russians had a hand in that.

You miss my whole point. I am saying a lot of people only vote for people that promise the earth. Many choose to ignore the racist **** or the warnings (Brexit, Trump) or about how bad the Tories actually are to the poor with all there cuts, just because of their propaganda. The Tories spend far more and are far better then Labour at doing it. Blair came of as a evil twat so people didn't vote for him either.

People have to look past the crap and see things properly.

 

[Beef]

Out of interest, racist against whom?

Brexit? 99% of the stuff was about immigrants and how they are to blame for everything.

Trump it's pretty obvious.

 

[ImpSaint]

I find the refusal to even try and understand along with the insistance that x means y to be baffling. The whole "Tories used to be a pro EU party" ignores the reality that the Tories were never a pro-EU party. They were a Pro "common market" party which is not the EU.

Then it ignores that most of those EU supporters are Cameron installations after the Blair landslide left empty posts for Cameron to fill others in his own image.

Then there is the belief that the 2 at the top are remainers when the fact it May and Hammond were always euro-sceptics that simply went with what they thought would be the winning side. Everybody seems to have forgotten how they spoke pre 2015. Even Javid is a euro-sceptic.

And to warble on about "enabling racists" is silly. What alternative was there? Just vote for more of the same? This attitude will just see more people "enabling racists" but hey, so what! Who cares if we end up with Trumps all over europe. Not our problem is it because we still have the moral highground and kept our noses clean and supported the "good causes."

 

[Beef]

I find the refusal to even try and understand along with the insistance that x means y to be baffling. The whole "Tories used to be a pro EU party" ignores the reality that the Tories were never a pro-EU party. They were a Pro "common market" party which is not the EU.

Then it ignores that most of those EU supporters are Cameron installations after the Blair landslide left empty posts for Cameron to fill others in his own image.

Then there is the belief that the 2 at the top are remainers when the fact it May and Hammond were always euro-sceptics that simply went with what they thought would be the winning side. Everybody seems to have forgotten how they spoke pre 2015. Even Javid is a euro-sceptic.

And to warble on about "enabling racists" is silly. What alternative was there? Just vote for more of the same? This attitude will just see more people "enabling racists" but hey, so what! Who cares if we end up with Trumps all over europe. Not our problem is it because we still have the moral highground and kept our noses clean and supported the "good causes."

Tories are pro helping the rich (also help themselves), be it business or people, I never said anything about them being pro or anti EU.

They are just far better at making people think they will make everything better. You only have to look at the people on disablity benefits etc that still vote for them, even though the Tories cut benefits time after time.

Sometimes things being same is better then the unknown. I can't do anything to stop people voting for people like Trump. But I then am not about to let people that are either racist or enabled a racist into my life. I have enough problems in my life as it is.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Brexit? 99% of the stuff was about immigrants and how they are to blame for everything.

Trump it's pretty obvious.

Pretty sure that most Euro countries are turning against the idea of hoards of muslim immigrants entering their countries. Their religion/cult/way of life simply does not mix with the euro way of life. Muslims on the whole (dont say not all, because the moderates are not the ones doing the killings) do not want your way of life and do not want you to have your way of life. They are racist, sexist and non tolerant, is it wrong being a bigot against racist,sexist bigot?
Maybe if well educated young families (probably christian) were trying to get into the country it might be different, but these gangs of 20 year old men with no education are good for nothing, only looking for their free stuff from soft governments that are afraid of being called racist if they dont help them.
Sweden, Finland and germany are very liberal countries, yet they are shutting up shop because these people can not be helped, their upbringing will not allow them to mix in a democratic country
Other immigrants like Poles try to get to the Uk to work and raise their families, no probs there

 

[Onionman]

Brexit? 99% of the stuff was about immigrants and how they are to blame for everything.

The way I describe it is that not everyone who voted leave was a racist. However, every racist voted leave.

Vin

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Pretty sure that most Euro countries are turning against the idea of hoards of muslim immigrants entering their countries. Their religion/cult/way of life simply does not mix with the euro way of life. Muslims on the whole (dont say not all, because the moderates are not the ones doing the killings) do not want your way of life and do not want you to have your way of life. They are racist, sexist and non tolerant, is it wrong being a bigot against racist,sexist bigot?
Maybe if well educated young families (probably christian) were trying to get into the country it might be different, but these gangs of 20 year old men with no education are good for nothing, only looking for their free stuff from soft governments that are afraid of being called racist if they dont help them.
Sweden, Finland and germany are very liberal countries, yet they are shutting up shop because these people can not be helped, their upbringing will not allow them to mix in a democratic country
Other immigrants like Poles try to get to the Uk to work and raise their families, no probs there

I think you just justified Beefy's point exactly there! Sweeping generalisations about Muslims is exactly the sort of thing that gets some (not all) people to vote for Brexit.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

The way I describe it is that not everyone who voted leave was a racist. However, every racist voted leave.

Vin

This !

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

Brexit and the Trump campaign were run on racist bigotted views. Any one who voted for them either is racist or enabled a racist. I have a friend who is unable to work due to sickness and feels like he is treated like ****. He gets paid hardly anything, yet he still didn't vote for Brexit as a protest vote.

So sorry I won't be trying to hear the people that said they voted for Brexit as they felt left behind.

I voted Brexit . You are saying I should not have ? because I would encourage ( ENABLE ) racism ?

Beefy , Racism IS DISGUSTING !

I will still use my vote for what I believe is right at the time !!!!!!!

 

[Onionman]

Pretty sure that most Euro countries are turning against the idea of hoards of muslim immigrants entering their countries. Their religion/cult/way of life simply does not mix with the euro way of life.

Really? I know plenty of muslims and they integrate well. They are peaceful and hard-working, both of which are character traits that are acceptable to me

Muslims on the whole (dont say not all, because the moderates are not the ones doing the killings) do not want your way of life and do not want you to have your way of life. They are racist, sexist and non tolerant, is it wrong being a bigot against racist,sexist bigot?

Wow. To rephrase, cutting out the parenthetic statements: "Muslims on the whole are racist, sexist and non tolerant?"

Maybe if well educated young families (probably christian) were trying to get into the country it might be different, but these gangs of 20 year old men with no education are good for nothing, only looking for their free stuff from soft governments that are afraid of being called racist if they dont help them.

Yes, "christians good, muslims bad."

Gangs of 20 year old men? Yes, entire families leaving Syria are actually composed of gangs of 20 year old men. STOP READING THE DAILY MAIL!

Here's a reminder for you of a previous comment by the Mail regarding immigrants: Tell me how well that finished.

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Sweden, Finland and germany are very liberal countries, yet they are shutting up shop because these people can not be helped, their upbringing will not allow them to mix in a democratic country
Other immigrants like Poles try to get to the Uk to work and raise their families, no probs there

"These people". Yes, they are all the same. All identical, all the same views, all the same politics, all the same desire not to mix, all the same upbringing.

You are aware that the second definition of racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."?



And finally, the people leaving Syria are escaping a regime that drops barrel bombs onto residential areas. We have a duty to care for them. Before you attack them for seeking refuge elsewhere maybe consider how you would deal with it if our government were doing that to your home town. Genuinely, what would you do?

Vin

 

[Beef]

I voted Brexit . You are saying I should not have ? because I would encourage ( ENABLE ) racism ?

Beefy , Racism IS DISGUSTING !

I will still use my vote for what I believe is right at the time !!!!!!!

You may believe racism is disgusting. But you enabled bigots like Farage etc by voting for Brexit.

 

[ImpSaint]

Gangs of 20 year old men? Yes, entire families leaving Syria are actually composed of gangs of 20 year old men. STOP READING THE DAILY MAIL!

Vin I agree with most of the rest of your post but the above is wrong. Wasn't it the UN or one of similar bodies that actually gave stats that said this was true?

Even the UNHCR have now started saying "migrants and refugees" and EHCR figures are:

"According to UNHCR data, 58% of the refugees and migrants arriving in Europe by sea in 2015 were men, 17% were women and 25% were children."

While a little flippant to say they are "gangs of 20 year old men" it is quite clear that all or most of the children are likely to belong or be related to the some of the 17% of women which leaves a huge discrepancy as to how there are 58% of men. It isn't exactly the Titanic "women and children first" is it? Most of the women and children are being left behind!!

And those figures are taken off wikipedia, not the mail. I am pretty sure the UN has openly stated that a large proportion of the refugees are actually not refugees. Struggling to find the detail on that one though.

I do agree with you that most muslims are not a threat even I would assume those that are fleeing to Europe but there are clear problems with religions on both sides. While we are quick to moan about the US having problems on the Christian side we do seem quite blind to what is creeping up on the outside here in Europe mainly because no-one wants to talk about it for fear of being called a phobe.

I wonder how people would react if the majority christians in the UK said "we no longer want to abide by UK law, we want our communities ruled according to the Christian rule book and then choose which sect of christianity is going to be the ruling sect for that law? Sharia is already being practised in some areas of the country and often by peaceful muslims.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

You may believe racism is disgusting. But you enabled bigots like Farage etc by voting for Brexit.

I voted for what I thought was right for the future of my nephews and nieces and God daughter etc ( ordinary people the world over as well) . I take serious personal offence at your last comment , and will put you on my ignore list, which is a shame, because up until now you always seemed OK to me.

May you have the life I hope you deserve......... .

 

[ImpSaint]

You may believe racism is disgusting. But you enabled bigots like Farage etc by voting for Brexit.

Brexit didn't get Farage a seat in power did it? That is a stupid statement. Left/Liberal ignorance gave him the platform. It is the Tories that beat him in elections while Labour and the Dems are busy name calling.

It will be the Tories again in Stoke that stop UKIP scooping up all the lost labour votes to enable Labour to retain the seat by a small victory. Horrible nasty Tories, disgusting Tory people saving the ignorant left from UKIP getting in........again.