Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

The fact that people do not know how these things work is indeed a problem. But it's not a problem with the function of the EU, it's a problem of engagement which falls both on the institutions of the EU and on its citizenry. Because people have chosen to detach themselves from the EU's necessarily complex systems, they do not understand it, and they resent that which they do not understand. That leads to situations like Brexit, where people are very much against a panoply of largely-imagined slights with a poor grasp on the benefits derived from membership. .

This is absolutely something for which the EU deserves critique. But that critique is that the EU has long had something of a public relations problem of its own making, rather than that it is a shadowy body of scheming technocrats driven to undermine the UK's ability to have the right colour of passport.

Also, you do realize the internal contradiction in what you have posted here, right? That the EU is merely a vehicle for Franco-German domination...yet Merkel herself was pressured into backing Juncker.

Merkel was pressured from within her own country in part because Schultz wanted the job. She was pressured to back Juncker from within and then tried to do a Corbyn/May Remain strategy and stay away from the subject. It was when countries like the UK (and others not just Hungary) were questioning Juncker that she was forced to confirm her backing. And thus from there other countries ended up having to back him too, leaving just the UK and Hungary in the end.

Your second paragraph is where our disagreement is in reality on this subject. You think it is just a communication problem. I think it is intentionally so!!!

One thing though coming through these pages is how you all try and belittle any leave critics with "bananas" or "blue passports." Who cares in reality. That shows more about the attitude of remainers than leavers. I have a passport. I don't care what colour it is. It will still do the same thing post Brexit as it does now. My favourite colour is green. Maybe in the current climate it will be multi-coloured after pressure from groups to be a diverse colour scheme?

 

[rednright]

Killing the poor and sick was 100% avoidable and to say it wasn't is kind of disgusting. We even have aid agencies etc say this is a crime against humanity yet people still think it was unavoidable.

Where did I mention about killing the poor and the sick? I also stated it could have been handled better. Do you seriously believe that Labour did the right thing then, spending money the country did no have?

 

[ImpSaint]

Ah! So you agree that EU laws are important as long as they benefit the U.K. I’ll remember that when I’m chewing on my spam and pink slime imported from Trumpland, as it looks like foodstuffs from the EU will have tariffs slapped on them to “protect” British farmers (who will have lost their biggest market) .......

I agree that rules are only important if they are upheld. There is no point in having a rule that is only applied in one direction or selective.

I know you all like to exaggerate things and make out leavers just want Jonny Foreigner locked out, the bendiest bananas going and blue passports that say ENGERLAND on them but in your last sentence you show how you will say anything.

British Farmer's will not be "losing their biggest market." Maybe you just missed the word "export" out but the biggest market for British Farmers is the home market!!!

And we export a tiny fraction of what we import from the EU foodwise.

According to the DEFRA agriculture paper in 2017 the UK grows 61% of the food we eat.

I think you were so keen to use the farmers to prove your point and that is maybe a problem too. Are distillers or brewers "farmers?"

But the fact remains that the EU is not the biggest market for our farmers. The home market is.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

should anyone need any advice on how to survive, with a sense of humour, in a country brought to it's knees, I have 15 years of experience.

 

[ImpSaint]

The twat from Liverpool has been suspended, less than 48 hours after his readmission.

No, you couldn't make it up.

And the Soubry's of this world are trying to say "Stephen Woolfe" shows that the UKIP takeover of the Tory party is real.........despite him being refused membership.

Only yesterday (or the day before) Stephen Woolfe tweeted that he would stand for candidacy to which he got plenty of replies from Tories (including CCHQ) that he would find that hard not being a member of the party.

 

[San Tejón]

I’m not disagreeing with you at all. The sad fact is that, whilst the Tories have sold out to the right wing, Labour has done the same with the extreme left wing. Now they bring back that twat from Liverpool with his Marxist views and cannot even stand up to the ****show of a government who can’t sort anything out.
If only we had a decent opposition party who could bring reasonable taxation to those who avoid them, have actual plans on how we can get the best from EU membership, fund the NHS and stop giving millions to “consultants” (creeping privatisation) and actually do something to stop all this madness, I’d know who to vote for.
At the moment, there’s not a cats chance in hell of me voting for either May or Corbyn, but I’m damn well going to vote!

Dave, take another look at the Labour manifesto for 2017.
If you think it is extreme left, then that makes me extreme left, because I strongly believe in the need for more social housing, the protection of the NHS, better protection for workers, better investment in education, a fairer welfare state, a more equal society, and, yes, a Brexit plan. Oh and they plan to go after tax avoiders.
I accept that there are extreme left members in the Labour Party, as there are extreme right in the Conservative party, but I scratch my head when people look at the Labour manifesto and dismiss it as extreme leftism.

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/

 

[rednright]

should anyone need any advice on how to survive, with a sense of humour, in a country brought to it's knees, I have 15 years of experience.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

it's probably best to say nothing!

 

[AshbySaint]

Dave, take another look at the Labour manifesto for 2017.
If you think it is extreme left, then that makes me extreme left, because I strongly believe in the need for more social housing, the protection of the NHS, better protection for workers, better investment in education, a fairer welfare state, a more equal society, and, yes, a Brexit plan. Oh and they plan to go after tax avoiders.
I accept that there are extreme left members in the Labour Party, as there are extreme right in the Conservative party, but I scratch my head when people look at the Labour manifesto and dismiss it as extreme leftism.

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/

Whats the manifesto got to do with it? Doesn't mean that if they get in they won't adopt mad far left policies?

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Its probably best to stop fearing the unknown, and just embrace it.
It may well have a detrimental effect on our living in the short turn, it may well spook industry.
I'm just going to use it as motivation, work harder & expect less. Support local shops & ignore the big shots who turn their back on us. Pay more to our farmers & give less to the tax dodging fast coffee suppliers (and the others).
Once the scare mongering subsides, and we remember who we really are, the only legacy left behind will be the distrust of politicians who pursued their own goals whilst forgetting the people who elevated them to the position they held.
For me, there's only one real loser coming out of the last three years and that is the environmental issue. But that guilt is for another day, or year or generation when it's too late.

 

[San Tejón]

Whats the manifesto got to do with it? Doesn't mean that if they get in they won't adopt mad far left policies?

 

[Schad]

Merkel was pressured from within her own country in part because Schultz wanted the job. She was pressured to back Juncker from within and then tried to do a Corbyn/May Remain strategy and stay away from the subject. It was when countries like the UK (and others not just Hungary) were questioning Juncker that she was forced to confirm her backing. And thus from there other countries ended up having to back him too, leaving just the UK and Hungary in the end.

Your second paragraph is where our disagreement is in reality on this subject. You think it is just a communication problem. I think it is intentionally so!!!

I think it's the necessary balancing act where you have an organization that serves two masters: its member-states through the council, and its citizens through the Parliament. It has the opacity that typifies any organization of its complexity (or even that of a national bureaucracy), plus a complicated decision-making structure that is designed to ensure adequate representation for the participating nations.

That's the irony: the complex structures of the EU exist mostly to prevent countries from being run over by a few dominant powers, yet the complexity results in people feeling as if decisions are being made unaccountably.

One thing though coming through these pages is how you all try and belittle any leave critics with "bananas" or "blue passports." Who cares in reality. That shows more about the attitude of remainers than leavers. I have a passport. don;t care what colour it is. It will still do the same thing post Brexit as it does now.

It's because complaints about passport colours remain among the few actually coherent (if utterly silly) reasons for leaving the EU that have been forwarded, with the exception of "I don't like immigrants".

 

[rednright]

it's probably best to say nothing!

I put a thumbs up in! Not sure what happend there

 

[ImpSaint]

I think it's the necessary balancing act where you have an organization that serves two masters: its member-states through the council, and its citizens through the Parliament. It has the opacity that typifies any organization of its complexity (or even that of a national bureaucracy), plus a complicated decision-making structure that is designed to ensure adequate representation for the participating nations.

That's the irony: the complex structures of the EU exist mostly to prevent countries from being run over by a few dominant powers, yet the complexity results in people feeling as if decisions are being made unaccountably.



It's because complaints about passport colours remain among the few actually coherent (if utterly silly) reasons for leaving the EU that have been forwarded, with the exception of "I don't like immigrants".

I think the "blue passports" and "bendy bananas" are exactly the same type of simplistic stereotype soundbites that the remain camp constantly accuse the leave campaign of relying on.

 

[Schad]

It's because, a month away from the departure date, the leave campaign has yet to really forward anything beyond simplistic stereotype soundbites. No one seems to be able to offer a coherent picture of what the UK will gain beyond some amorphous concept of "control".

 

[ImpSaint]

It's because, a month away from the departure date, the leave campaign has yet to really forward anything beyond simplistic stereotype soundbites. No one seems to be able to offer a coherent picture of what the UK will gain beyond some amorphous concept of "control".

What "leave campaign?" It has always been the remain orientated politicians in charge of what will happen, which way the process will go, what to ask for etc. they are still in charge. What "leave campaign?"

Even now we have one side if the house trying to pressure the opposition into backing a referendum of "the deal vs remain." and now we also have a chunk of Tory leave and remainers saying they will push for delay if the deal isn't signed and saying the only conclusion from delay will be no Brexit!!!

Yet all we hear from opponents of Brexit is talk of Bluekip or that the party is in the hands of the ERG which is laughable. The ERG can only stop a government majority but they can't stop the rest filling up the numbers. All the ERG can do is stop the government getting something through purely on government votes.

The whole process has gone away from caring in the slightest what any remainer or leaver voted, despite their constant utterances to the contrary, and their talk is all about "parliamentary arithmetic." It would be great if any of them were actually trying to reach a compromise related to what the public voted on (remain and leave) but in reality it is not anything to do with satisfying anyone in the public, merely about trying to achieve a compromise that satisfies them in there.

there is no "leave campaign" and before as well as after it was and is the remain campaign that hold the reigns and the negotiating positions. May and her civil servant are the ones in control now. Cameron and Osborne before.

The Labour moderates are now trying to push for a referendum on May's deal vs remain. Which in effect means that the side that won the vote are ignored and presented with 2 remain options. that is how our politics is now!!!

 

[ChilcoSaint]

What "leave campaign?" It has always been the remain orientated politicians in charge of what will happen, which way the process will go, what to ask for etc. they are still in charge. What "leave campaign?"

Even now we have one side if the house trying to pressure the opposition into backing a referendum of "the deal vs remain." and now we also have a chunk of Tory leave and remainers saying they will push for delay if the deal isn't signed and saying the only conclusion from delay will be no Brexit!!!

Yet all we hear from opponents of Brexit is talk of Bluekip or that the party is in the hands of the ERG which is laughable. The ERG can only stop a government majority but they can't stop the rest filling up the numbers. All the ERG can do is stop the government getting something through purely on government votes.

The whole process has gone away from caring in the slightest what any remainer or leaver voted, despite their constant utterances to the contrary, and their talk is all about "parliamentary arithmetic." It would be great if any of them were actually trying to reach a compromise related to what the public voted on (remain and leave) but in reality it is not anything to do with satisfying anyone in the public, merely about trying to achieve a compromise that satisfies them in there.

there is no "leave campaign" and before as well as after it was and is the remain campaign that hold the reigns and the negotiating positions. May and her civil servant are the ones in control now. Cameron and Osborne before.

The Labour moderates are now trying to push for a referendum on May's deal vs remain. Which in effect means that the side that won the vote are ignored and presented with 2 remain options. that is how our politics is now!!!

Please explain in what universe May’s deal = Remain.

You appear to be losing the plot entirely Imps.

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

Please explain in what universe May’s deal = Remain.
---------------------------------------

But what has she actually done about leaving?
Some cobbled together deals that everyone hates......is that it?

 

[Archers Road]

Whats the manifesto got to do with it? Doesn't mean that if they get in they won't adopt mad far left policies?

If they get in, they’ll attempt to implement their manifesto. Which means mad far left policies like taking the railways and water board back into public ownership, closing tax loopholes in the City, and raising taxes on the highest earners, to fund increased spending on the NHS, education and the police. That sort of far left nonsense.

 

[Archers Road]

I think the "blue passports" and "bendy bananas" are exactly the same type of simplistic stereotype soundbites that the remain camp constantly accuse the leave campaign of relying on.

They are emblematic of the frothy emotional appeal, almost entirely without substance, that the Leave campaign relies upon.

And they are both real examples, presented in the right wing, pro leave media, as tangible benefits of Brexit. I am still yet to hear of a single other tangible benefit. Oh no, tell a lie...something on a bus about millions of pounds a week going into the NHS - how long did it take for that to be disowned?

Actually, the more you look at the promises made by the Leave campaign, the more you realise how utterly dishonest the whole thing was.