Off Topic Politics Thread

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Listen to the Prof! Listen to the Prof!
23 minutes-you will be convinced!

Watched it...not convinced.
He may well be talking sense, but we only have his word for it.

I have a question though.

If Britain is so dependent on remaining in the EU in order to have any hope of stability and economic growth, if our economy is so insignificant outside the EU that we would have no international influence and be unable to establish reasonable trade deals deals post-Brexit.

If a vote to leave could doom us all to a dismal, isolated future scrabbling around in the dark, unable to feed ourselves because we're not self sufficient in food or energy while jackbooted Tory dictators trample all over our rights and property eventually forcing us all to live in crowded underground slums like some kind of tattooed, swearing Morlocks, forever banished from sunlight and the outside world just so that the powerful can enjoy the countryside properly without any oiks around to spoil it for them.

If our inability to trade profitably ultimately causes huge commodity price rises leading to spiraling inflation of Zimbabwean proportions, destruction of the currency and an eventual return to the barter system before society finally breaks down completely and is reduced to barbarism, cannibalism and the ultimate supremacy of talking apes...the cries of "you maniacs, you blew it up! God damn you, God damn you all to hell" ringing from the throats of the pathetic remnants of the Vote Remain tribe....

If that's the case (I may have just slightly overstated some details in the post-brexit scenarios just a smidge), and we are so obviously, transparently reliant on the EU for our survival and prosperity and not important enough an economy to influence other countries in trade negotiations.....

....then why does it seem like the US, the EU, the IMF, the ECB and various other important organisations are ****ting their collective pants at the thought of Britain bailing out on the severely flawed ideology and organisation that is the EU, and not just dismissing it as an unimportant event?

Does that not give any hints that Britain might be a bit better equipped to deal with Brexit than we are lead to believe?

 

[TheSecondStain]

He wasn't making a political pitch. This is an expert in the field. If you can't take account of his word then you are going with a gut feeling based on nothing but ifs, buts and maybes.

 

[TheSecondStain]

BTW, I like the irony that Nigel Farage said over the weekend that the Leave campaign had good momentum until the MP was killed. Yesterday he accused the Remain campaign of using the MPs death as political propaganda.

Jeez, the guy can't manage to remember what he said less than 48 hours apart.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

He wasn't making a political pitch. This is an expert in the field. If you can't take account of his word then you are going with a gut feeling based on nothing but ifs, buts and maybes.

He was discussing his interpretation of Some aspects of law, and potential issues this country would have in in setting up trade agreements etc etc.
I listened to what he wanted to talk about, and all I'll say is you've got some funny ideas if youvthink he wasn't making a political point.
I am not politically naive, I dont make political decisions based on gut feeling, or personalities and, with the greatest respect TSS, I dont give a flying **** whether he is described as an expert in his field. What he is pretending to be is someone who Knows exactly what is going to happen in the event of Brexit.
His guess might be better informed than mine, but its still a guess.

 

[TheSecondStain]

He was discussing his interpretation of Some aspects of law, and potential issues this country would have in in setting up trade agreements etc etc.
I listened to what he wanted to talk about, and all I'll say is you've got some funny ideas if youvthink he wasn't making a political point.
I am not politically naive, I dont make political decisions based on gut feeling, or personalities and, with the greatest respect TSS, I dont give a flying **** whether he is described as an expert in his field. What he is pretending to be is someone who Knows exactly what is going to happen in the event of Brexit.
His guess might be better informed than mine, but its still a guess.

OK Rorsach, no need to lose it. But even if he's guessing...

Here's a bit of actual political comment that is actually pretty much in line with my own personal view:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite

 

[Channonfodder]

He was discussing his interpretation of Some aspects of law, and potential issues this country would have in in setting up trade agreements etc etc.
I listened to what he wanted to talk about, and all I'll say is you've got some funny ideas if youvthink he wasn't making a political point.
I am not politically naive, I dont make political decisions based on gut feeling, or personalities and, with the greatest respect TSS, I dont give a flying **** whether he is described as an expert in his field. What he is pretending to be is someone who Knows exactly what is going to happen in the event of Brexit.
His guess might be better informed than mine, but its still a guess.

A strange comment since he actually states that anyone who says that they know what would happen in the event of Brexit is deluding themselves as there are so many unknowns. He talks about parameters, ranges of outcomes and timeframes. His statement that the time taken to negotiate trade deals is much longer than 2 years is self-evidently fair comment.

 

[fatletiss]

Watched it...not convinced.
He may well be talking sense, but we only have his word for it.

I have a question though.

If Britain is so dependent on remaining in the EU in order to have any hope of stability and economic growth, if our economy is so insignificant outside the EU that we would have no international influence and be unable to establish reasonable trade deals deals post-Brexit.

If a vote to leave could doom us all to a dismal, isolated future scrabbling around in the dark, unable to feed ourselves because we're not self sufficient in food or energy while jackbooted Tory dictators trample all over our rights and property eventually forcing us all to live in crowded underground slums like some kind of tattooed, swearing Morlocks, forever banished from sunlight and the outside world just so that the powerful can enjoy the countryside properly without any oiks around to spoil it for them.

If our inability to trade profitably ultimately causes huge commodity price rises leading to spiraling inflation of Zimbabwean proportions, destruction of the currency and an eventual return to the barter system before society finally breaks down completely and is reduced to barbarism, cannibalism and the ultimate supremacy of talking apes...the cries of "you maniacs, you blew it up! God damn you, God damn you all to hell" ringing from the throats of the pathetic remnants of the Vote Remain tribe....

If that's the case (I may have just slightly overstated some details in the post-brexit scenarios just a smidge), and we are so obviously, transparently reliant on the EU for our survival and prosperity and not important enough an economy to influence other countries in trade negotiations.....

....then why does it seem like the US, the EU, the IMF, the ECB and various other important organisations are ****ting their collective pants at the thought of Britain bailing out on the severely flawed ideology and organisation that is the EU, and not just dismissing it as an unimportant event?

Does that not give any hints that Britain might be a bit better equipped to deal with Brexit than we are lead to believe?

RJ - I know you're being passionate and exaggerating, but this post just about sums up how the two campaigns have been run. Silly.

The point you make isn't silly at all, very valid, but the build up to it was. Are you a politician by any chance?

 

[fatletiss]

He wasn't making a political pitch. This is an expert in the field. If you can't take account of his word then you are going with a gut feeling based on nothing but ifs, buts and maybes.

And this is the problem. Most people (not all) have their side and stay blind to that side.

This works for both the Leave and the Remain campaign. The campaigners and leaders make it sound black and white, whereas in reality, it won't be.

 

[San Tejón]

NHS in "not enough beds" shock. The U.K. Has 300 beds per 100,000 people, in comparison to Romania that has 600 beds per 100,000.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/patients-being-harmed-nhs-just-8237486

 

[saintkitch]

i have no real interest in politics (as you may have guessed) as far as i can tell its a load of liars talking bollocks and doing whats best for themselves. This referendum has me slightly interested because now both sides are pretty much telling blatant obvious lies to try to get votes and they seem to have no shame in doing so. I'm kind of airing towards out as i'm interested to see what bullshit Cameron comes out with to keep his job, or will he resign if the vote doesn't go his way.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Watched it...not convinced.
He may well be talking sense, but we only have his word for it.

I have a question though.

If Britain is so dependent on remaining in the EU in order to have any hope of stability and economic growth, if our economy is so insignificant outside the EU that we would have no international influence and be unable to establish reasonable trade deals deals post-Brexit.

If a vote to leave could doom us all to a dismal, isolated future scrabbling around in the dark, unable to feed ourselves because we're not self sufficient in food or energy while jackbooted Tory dictators trample all over our rights and property eventually forcing us all to live in crowded underground slums like some kind of tattooed, swearing Morlocks, forever banished from sunlight and the outside world just so that the powerful can enjoy the countryside properly without any oiks around to spoil it for them.

If our inability to trade profitably ultimately causes huge commodity price rises leading to spiraling inflation of Zimbabwean proportions, destruction of the currency and an eventual return to the barter system before society finally breaks down completely and is reduced to barbarism, cannibalism and the ultimate supremacy of talking apes...the cries of "you maniacs, you blew it up! God damn you, God damn you all to hell" ringing from the throats of the pathetic remnants of the Vote Remain tribe....

If that's the case (I may have just slightly overstated some details in the post-brexit scenarios just a smidge), and we are so obviously, transparently reliant on the EU for our survival and prosperity and not important enough an economy to influence other countries in trade negotiations.....

....then why does it seem like the US, the EU, the IMF, the ECB and various other important organisations are ****ting their collective pants at the thought of Britain bailing out on the severely flawed ideology and organisation that is the EU, and not just dismissing it as an unimportant event?

Does that not give any hints that Britain might be a bit better equipped to deal with Brexit than we are lead to believe?

I think (hope) that you are purposely exaggerating these points just a bit. No one as far as I am aware is saying that we can't go it alone. What is being said is that there will be a period of time (anytime up to about 10 years depending on who you believe) when our economy takes a hit and this has been accepted by the leave campaign. No one knows whether we will be better off out or in but the period of uncertainty will affect the economy and jobs. Other countries are concerned because the uncertainty will affect their economies too. If someone sneezes in America the market drops that's how it works. If the market drops companies make cuts. There are companies in the UK which are here as they have access to the EU. Will they stay? I wouldn't if I was them. People have to decide if they personally are willing to risk their jobs, houses etc (because no one knows which jobs will go) just to leave the EU. Once the decision is made you can bet the politicians will get the blame if they have to make decisions which affect the masses, however this time it will be on us.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

RJ - I know you're being passionate and exaggerating, but this post just about sums up how the two campaigns have been run. Silly.

The point you make isn't silly at all, very valid, but the build up to it was. Are you a politician by any chance?

Ha! They'd never let me join their club Fats!

Apologies to TSS by the way as you don't deserve me snapping at you for your views I was just in one of those silly moods last night, and went off on a bit of a tangent...what triggered the silliness was reading articles from people who think that their arguments based on precedent have some kind of authority when talking about a unique situation - it might be laid out as logical and sensible and backed up by what it portrays as known data but actually nothing is known.
Never before in modern times has a major world economy done what Britain is considering...your guess is as good as mine what the outcome will be - probably not Morlocks and intelligent apes but equally we don't know what will happen to European and World commerce regardless of how it is couched in terms of parameters, timescales and ranges of outcomes.
The realities of a post Brexit Europe may be very different to the guessed at scenarios that are pushed forward as fact (by both sides),or if not fact, then more factual and valid than other guesses.

So my point really is that ALL these differing arguments are pointless, currently, and what we need to do is make a decision on Thursday...then we'll see.

Personally, I don't consider the economic consequences to be of tantamount importance as I'm an advocate for change for change sake at this point in our history. I loath inertia in government and society and am not scared by the consequences of a leave campaign - I don't believe that the EU is an organisation that helps us as a nation, and if the vote at this time was to join the EU or not, then I would expect an overwhelming NOT. I am not prepared to vote to stay in a situation where we are propping up a stumbling, broken institution that mostly serves to support German federalist ambitions and that feeds on itself in order to make money for its stakeholders -
( the so called Greek bailout for instance is a prime example of destructive self interest within a seeming cooperative framework, and don't even get me started on that.)

What's important for me is the ability and right to make such a decision - the consequences will be what they are but the mere act if voting one way or the other puts responsibility in people's hands, and shows democracy at work, which let's be fair, does not happen during general elections.

 

[fatletiss]

Personally, the way the Out campaign has been run makes me feel like we are heading back centuries and the Viking in us is coming out. If some of the leading campaigners had been wearing head to toe chain mail, a white cloth with a red cross and brandishing a sword, I wouldn't have been surprised. The world is a different place now and far more integrated globally.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

I agree that if we were voting to join it would probably be an overwhelming no but we're not. We are voting whether to leave and over the years we have become so interwoven that it's going to be a right bugger getting out without any pain.

 

[fatletiss]

What's important for me is the ability and right to make such a decision - the consequences will be what they are but the mere act if voting one way or the other puts responsibility in people's hands, and shows democracy at work, which let's be fair, does not happen during general elections.

Funny, I am the other way. I wish we (the public) weren't making that decision.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I agree that if we were voting to join it would probably be an overwhelming no but we're not. We are voting whether to leave and over the years we have become so interwoven that it's going to be a right bugger getting out without any pain.

No pain, no gain. You're spot on that it will be a bugger getting out, but I'd like a chance to try.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Funny, I am the other way. I wish we (the public) weren't making that decision.

Thats human Nature Fats, you're almost definitely in the majority with those views. I just tend to be more reckless in life, one could say self destructive almost, so my views and decisions are often not based on perceived wisdom and can be more challenging to live with...its been exciting at times though, and I love a challenge - I think this country needs one too.

 

[fatletiss]

Thats human Nature Fats, you're almost definitely in the majority with those views. I just tend to be more reckless in life, one could say self destructive almost, so my views and decisions are often not based on perceived wisdom and can be more challenging to live with...its been exciting at times though, and I love a challenge - I think this country needs one too.

That's why you chose Saints ​

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

That's why you chose Saints ​

Do you know what? It probably is

 

[The Ides of March]

Personally, the way the Out campaign has been run makes me feel like we are heading back centuries and the Viking in us is coming out. If some of the leading campaigners had been wearing head to toe chain mail, a white cloth with a red cross and brandishing a sword, I wouldn't have been surprised. The world is a different place now and far more integrated globally.

These might be Crusaders or England football fans in fancy dress!!