Off Topic Politics Thread

This “unelected cronies” argument is purely regurgitated propaganda from Farage and the Daily Mail though.

The truth is, MEP’s are elected.

Is the queen elected?
Is the House of Lords elected?
Do we have any say (really) in how our country is run?

They are playing on your emotions. We all like the thought of “decisions being in our own hands”, but that is not reality. In real life we have to compromise, both with our friends and our enemies.

People with this argument haven’t thought it through.
If our economy crashes, trade deals falter and inflation happens, so that we are all worse off in our every day lives, how is that worth it?

 

All I have ever heard from Leavers as to why they voted that way is the immigration issue. It was an emotional decision rather than a logical and rational one, we are all going to hell in a handcart in the UK but hey at least there won't be as many Polish shops....

 

Include the Telegraph and Spectator in the propaganda perpetrators list and have a look at https://thebrexitsyndicate.com/2018/07/04/the-barclay-brothers/ and the other articles on the site. All sourced and linked.

Still haven't had the list of benefits leaving will bring as previously requested. Express nonsense re ECJ ruled inadmissible by Schad's excellent post.

 

Beddy, I’m really sorry but this answer makes me very sad, and more than a little angry. If you and Imps are in any way typical of the millions who voted Leave in 2016 it is obvious that you aren’t clear what you were hoping to achieve by leaving, other than “paying back” the EU for the imaginary harm they are supposed to have done to us and the Commonwealth countries over the years. You refer to your “personal” reasons over and over again and expect us to accept they are meaningful without any evidence.

Your other point about taking back control is, I’m afraid, equally meaningless. Our membership of the EU gives us a voice in shaping the policies and future direction of the EU. How do the unelected bureaucrats of the EU, who administer the decisions made by the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers (all elected) differ from those of our own civil service? We have the right to opt out of any part of European legislation we don’t accept, such as the Schengen Agreement on free movement. That’s why we have Border Force checking passports at every port of entry into the UK. And please have a look at the Institute for Government report on the ECJ posted by Schad above which shows how little the EU actually does intervene in our domestic legislative decisions.

If you still think the EU has too much influence on our lives, just wait until you see what terms Donald Trump will impose on us in the trade agreement with the USA! The NHS will be completely dismantled and privatised, our food standards will plummet, and British agriculture will look back fondly on the good old days of the Common Agricultural Policy. Immigration won’t decrease, but will soar as part of trade agreements with countries like India and China. As has been pointed out many times, immigration from outside the EU is always about double that from EU countries, so how on earth does leaving the EU give us more control over immigration? It’s all complete bollocks peddled by the Express and Mail, just like the article you quoted on the ECJ.

You and the others who voted Leave will share in whatever the future holds with the rest of us, but please don’t ever say we didn’t warn you.

 

Hear hear, perfectly expressed Chilcs...

 

My facebook post on the morning of the referendum:

La roi est mort, viva la.... que?

The Emperor has no clothes on.

To the Eurosceptic, this is a statement of fact. The hollow centre of the EU has been shown up as a talking shop, whose lethargy and lack of agility to respond to crises has been tried in the court of public opinion. To the internationalist, it is a prophecy - that when the clamour dies down and the hard talking begins, the lack of any coherent plan on the Leave side will be revealed for what it is: arrogance, bluster and a cynical grab for power.

I voted remain. In an increasingly interconnected world, where many of the problems humanity faces are global, I see little good arising from division and isolationism.

I wish I could have more hope in the light of this result, but presently I see scarce few positives. At best, it may elicit some much needed soul-searching and reform or raise a warning flag to other nations. America has elections this year, Germany and France next. Let this be a lesson to you - those that they prey on hatred, division and intolerance will be emboldened by the outcome of the referendum. At worst, I see a decision that will divide a continent. Either Britain will made an example of, or other countries will leave the EU and enemies without will take advantage of the lack of solidarity.

We are in a bad negotiating position. Although this country has many benefits (good infrastructure, an educated populace, the English language, cultural soft power), we are in awkward situation. We have slightly over two years to negotiate trade deals both with the EU and with other partners. A recession, which is a definite possibility, will further diminish our negotiating position. Put simply, we are desperate, our trading partners may not be. In some instances, signing new trade deals may be as simple as changing a few names at the bottom of a treaty. In most cases, we are vulnerable to the internal political pressures facing our trading partners.

I genuinely hope that I am wrong. I hope that we can go it alone and make a success of things, and that I am merely auguring phantasms, not realities. But I certainly fear for the future.

It could be argued that we should have seen this coming. This vote is less a representation of dissatisfaction with the EU, and more a symptom of a greater malaise, a growing sense of disillusion with a small and distant elite who have benefited from globalisation, and a large majority that has not. This can be seen in the Occupy movement or in the American primaries or the rise of anti-establishment populist candidates. This would explain the rise of Trump as a potential US president, although it is hard to imagine that his election would herald a more egalitarian society. Ironically, as Orwell observed in "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism" in "1984", those are the bottom seldom benefit when the Establishment is dislodged.

So what can we do?

For starters, it is important not to castigate those voted against your wishes. Anyone can be lied to, and there was misinformation and fear on both sides of the campaign. Furthermore, whilst it is fair to say that a portion of the Leave vote was driven by xenophobia and ignorance (just as it is fair to say that a portion of the Remain electorate may have voted in its own self-interests), the matter of EU membership was always far more nuanced that the binary decision of Yes or No. The capability to vote to remain a member of the common market, but curtail the EU's political sensibilities, was not an option on the voting card.

I urge you to write to your MP. The Leave camp has promised that the same levels of investment that we receive from the EU. That's the same level of internal investment in science, the arts, or regions like Cornwall. Make Cameron enshrine that promise in law. And whilst he's at, get him to protect worker's rights too. There are many that are looking at the departure of the EU as any excuse to get rid of the EU Working Time Directive (under the guise of "Red Tape"). If we face a recession, erosion of worker’s rights will be made on the grounds of “competitiveness”.

The king is dead. Long live the King. But let's make sure he has some clothes on first!

 

Absolutely, well said that man.

 

Oh, and here’s the President of the National Farmers Union with her views on a no-deal Brexit:

 

Leaving the EU is dumb. Putting it simply, people that voted for leave bought into the lies from the racists in politics.

 

Agree with every word she said. What a pity that farmers in Debyshire, for example, voted to leave. Wales voted to leave. Fair few sheep there. Maybe they were the buggers voting so that their lambs wouldn't be leaving.

Like FLT, I await the good news about Brexit. Am I seriously meant to think that businesses large and small, the farmers and the financial sector are engaged in some sort of conspiracy to stop or at least temper Brexit when all along they know that the sunny uplands await us on the other side of a no-deal exit.

It doesn't stack up.

I do come across a group who think Brexit is good. They are the ideologues of the hard left who think that getting rid of the EU will allow the growth of a Socialist Utopia in which, if it's not nailed down, it'll be nationalised. They have spent most of their lives in East London, Barking to be precise.

So tell me, my ERG supporting friends, how much in accord are you with them?

 

While Fats is still waiting for someone to tell him what the benefits of Brexit will be, perhaps someone can explain why the government decided to act on the referendum, when the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result, thus making the vote advisory.

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

 

Straight bananas

 

Oh bugger off, Badger. It's the "Will of The People" innit?

Look 17.4m said "I'm an anti-European, get me out of here." So what choice did the Govt have? Now, we know some said this for extreme right wing reasons, others for extreme left, others because they had felt disenfranchised for decades and wanted to kick the govt's arse. Others may have stuck a pin in the ballot paper or played scissors, paper stone for all we know.

But they must now be treated as an homogenous group called "The People". Now the silly lot who voted the other way (aka "Losers") are not "The People".

Have you got that now, Badger? No more silly talk, please.

 

Was juncker elected?

 

I’m not going to tar the entire Leave vote with the racist brush. But take out immigration, and an ill defined fear of the foreigners in Brussels, and Brexit isn’t left with much.

Other than a general protest against an out of touch political establishment, that is. By which I mean the political establishment in Westminster. Not at all sure our first-past-the-post two party system is fit for purpose anymore. What a tragedy that Nick Clegg has the chance to address the issue of electoral reform, and utterly blew it.

 

By the European Parliament, yes.

 

Yes, by the European Parliament in 2014. He received 422 votes out of 729 cast.

Edit: That’s nearly 58% by the way.

 

Juncker?...wasn't that a WWII Nazi aircraft?...

 

Yes, the EU are cloning thousands of them to fire across the Channel after we’ve lest.

 

One thing that has been horribly exposed is how our current political systems aren’t good enough.

I will hold my breath that anyone can achieve any meaningful reforms though.

The infuriating part is that this is all so preventable. More education to combat the utter drivel spouted in the papers.

I am against outright censorship, but it seems to me that the press needs to be enforced to report stories that are at least somewhat balanced.