Off Topic Politics Thread

Surely if it were the Illuminati they would have held the referendum on the 23rd and then kept going on about JAMs Hmmm, that date and that acronym seem to be in my memory?

I'm not a "fan of Catalonia" in the slightest. Did we get a say on Scotland's independence? That would have affected us as well. Will be interesting to hear what Michael Portillo says on Thursdy's "this week" seeing as his Dad fled Spain after the civil war and is always quite knowledgable on Spain.

As for your assertion of Russia being behind this. I think I gave hints earlier on who has been funding the independence movement in Catalonia via his "open society" vehicle. The same name hiding across the pond always pops up with these unsettling uprisings and the same name always seems to earn out of them too!

Quite the reverse from it being Russia, it is the man the Russians want to jail.

 

Not intentionally. I often post something and then something else pops into my head and I amend. I didn't mean to mislead or anything like that.

On your SNP comment I agree. Spain should have let them do their referendum and then ignored it because it is illegal. I never said it was legal or binding nor do I suggest it should be.

My point r.e. 43% managing to vote was meaning that if there had been no resistence from the Spanish state police the turnout might have been higher. Who knows. What we are left with now is a smaller "sample" which is being taken as representative of what the full vote would have been had ballot boxes not been removed and voters not being denied a vote. They are taking it as read that a higher turnout would have achieved the same percentage.

And like I say. I am no Catalonian fanboy. I have no "interst" in independence however like the Scots. It's up to them and nothing to do with me. My only interest is in how the globalists that bang on about freedom all the time pick and choose when freedom is allowed and very quickly restrict freedom if it doesn't suit them.

They encouraged the Arab spring and virtually celebrated it happening. When it suits them they are all for freedom. When it doesn't they prevent that freedom.

 

They may be assuming that the remaining 57% would have voted the same way but that is one hell of a leap. We have no idea. Maybe some were not voting because it was illegal. We will never know how they would have voted so in my view that weakens the Catalonian's case for claiming independence. Do you know if the votes which were counted were independently verified? It looks like the Madrid Government are backing them into a corner to get them to say exactly whether they have declared independence or not. Difficult times.

On another note do you think that we will get no deal with the EU? I've thought it was heading that way for some time as the EU are being so inflexible. They obviously don't want to make it easy for us, so wish to set an example. Will they have the sense to agree something at the final moment? It's not in their interests to just let us go.

 

Just caught up with this, i'm so ****ing ashamed to be British sometimes....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b098thgb/panorama-hate-on-the-street

 

They had the UN (I think it was the UN) over there to monitor it. The BBC were interviewing some of them that couldn't believe the police response. I agree it is a leap to take the 43% sample as representative of what would have resulted with a higher turnout and agree that it weakens the Catalonian's case more than significantly.

Do I think we will get a no deal? That all depends on the EU. They have taken the stance from the beginning that all the pressure is on the UK and have always been quietly confident that we have to have a deal so they can play hardball not conceding anything because we will accept the deal at the end no matter what it is.

Quite obviously that can't be the case. No deal IS better than a bad deal because the EU needs a deal as much as us and if "no deal" ends up being the result the EU will have to come back to the table anyway to make some sort of "not bad" deal.

The main sticking point at the moment is not the money, not the trade deals or their "4 freedoms." It is their insistence that EU citizens should have the ECJ as their highest point of law and that just won't happen. It can't happen. No "sovereign" state in the world would accept that and there is no way that we will keep the ECJ as the highest court for all of our citizens. Talks won;t move on until they concede that we will not have a 2 tier system where EU citizens have access to different courts than our citizens as it would open up a can of worms for citizens of all other countries that live here. US citizens, Australian citizens, ZIMBABWEAN CITIZENS!!!! could pick and choose which legal system gives them the best outcome and that can;t happen. We will be the UK, outside the EU and the UK law system WILL be the legal authority in the UK. Once they concede this silly point I think the money and trade deals will be sorted.

They have wasted so much time sticking to this point when the most important point in this first stage is and always was the Irish border. However the Irish border ties in with trade and can't really be discussed without a semblance of an idea bout what the trade deal would be like. The Irish border will be the hardest part to sort out. Trade sorts itself out.

I think we will probably get to the end of the 2 years with "no deal" but move into an agreed transition period where nothing changes while we try to get to a deal. I have no faith in the EU to actually concede things though and with our own politicans from the remain side continually banging on about wanting a plan out in the public domain it hinders us being able to achieve a "not bad" deal..

If the government were to come out with where they would like to end up it would then become the new opening stance in the negotiation and we would end up much further from that.

For example. We want to reach 50. They want to start at 0, We want to start at 100. Hopefully once the negotiations end we have reached 50, half way between their starting point and ours.

The remainers constant insistence is that the government says "we want to reach 50." Problem then is that the EU will only concede half way and we end up with 75 instead of 50. Business leaders playing this game are lying. They would never open negotiations saying "this is where we want to get to." They would do the same as the government and start asking for everything in order to get to the point where we get half of that.

If we do end up with no deal it will be because of the EU not us. Would you pay £150 a month for Broadband if they refused to negotiate the price down? Would £150 a month Broadband be better than no broadband?

 

If your livelihood depended on broadband, then absolutely it would.

 

Badly phrased by me. Of course no deal is not going to result in no trade. Trade will still happen.

 

If the eu will supply the entire country with broadband for just £150pcm each the government should totally jump at that.

That's like less than 100th of a penny each.

 

At the end of the day, it is not in the interests of the EU to make it easy for us, or any other member, to leave for fear that other countries would follow suit.
Us being the first to attempt it will ensure that we are “made an example of” to deter other countries from trying to leave.

Personally I would like another vote because I cannot believe that those who voted “blindly” to leave (due to the lack of real information) would do the same again, now that the truth is being revealed about the future difficulties our country will face.

If you make an offer on a house, then realise it isn’t right for you, for various reasons, you can, up to a point, withdraw from the deal.
I think the same should apply to Brexit.

 

Lol. You know what I mean. I'm quite happy with my 200mbps+ for whatever it costs (on a bundle so about £20 a month.)

 

Pretty much agree with all this. I don't understand how showing our hand is going to help us. That's not the way to negotiate unless you want a bad deal and the idea of agreeing to a bad deal just to get a deal is ridiculous. If you don't show your hand there is always the chance you might get better than you expected. Once it's agreed we are stuck with it. Deals can still be struck once we are out and the EU are certain to want that. This was never going to be pain free but you've got to think long term, it's better to suffer for a short while than for years to come. I still have hopes that the EU will see we are serious and be more flexible. Maybe the EU leaders will get things moving when they meet.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't been following this closely so might be wrong on details.

I really don't like like how Spain have handled this situation. As far as I'm concerned independence had enough support to give a mandate for a referendum, even if it might not have been in their best interests to have it there and then. And even of it was not legal the spanish government should have worked to make it so in the interests of representing their population.

I can understand the Catalan government holding the referendum anyway and the way Spain reacted was appalling. I imagine most undecided voters or leaning towards staying will have voted to leave because of that.

But since that vote was clearly not representative I wouldn't have called it a mandate to seperate but it it certainly enough to show madrid talks need to happen to do this properly. But by that point I guess a proper vote will by likely a leave vote so it's understandable that Spain are refusing to talk even if it's the wrong thing to do.

By this point even i'm hoping Catalan will find a way to leave even if the Spain taking control seems more likely. Can't see a good outcome for anyone now.

 

I saw you quoted me, so I read this response.

You're so tied into those weird places you go for information that you give hints that only certified alt-right nutjobs use for the name "George Soros", aka the Bogey Man. I had to search on "Open society" to find out who you were talking about. Are you afraid your posts are being monitored? Genuinely it comes across as mild paranioa.

So I have some personal advice. Get out of the bubble. Leave the internet alone for a month and see whether people around you are generally happy. I'll give you a clue, they are. Not about everything, but generally. Now that might be because they are "sheeple" or it might just be that their lives are running pretty well without subscribing to every globalisation, illuminati, New World Order, 1%, MSM conspiracy there is going. Serious advice. Have a break.

Vin

PS, I note that I said his name; is it like saying "Voldemort"? Should I say "He who runs Open Society"?

 

It's like saying Beetlejuice - don't say it 3 times ffs

 

I have no problem with saying Soros. Open society has funding in all sorts of stuff worldwide. One of them being the Catalonia independence movement.

And I am happy. I know those around me are happy (in the main.) I just want to be happier and I like this subject so don;t need a rest. I still don;t read (much) alt-right stuff other than to get a view of what they are saying/doing.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-jeremy-corbyns-water-vow-could-be-costly-11078116

Interesting article on nationalising the water companies.

 

A good and humorous analysis. Can't argue with much of it.

 

I was just about to post this but I see you already have.

 

This isn't at all true:

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/press-releases/statement-catalan-referendum

As Onionman said, you need to find better sources of information, or more thoroughly cross-check what you read.

 

This is what is going around the net:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html