Off Topic Politics Thread

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
It is fascinating concerning the Brexit issue as it should really be Theresa May's Achilles heel. I am glad that Labour have woken up to the fact that she actually campaigned to remain in the EU quite vociferously and surely more should be made of the fact that she has changed her tune? How can you trust her to make a good deal if she doesn't believe in it herself? I would have respected her had she been a politician of conviction and stuck to her guns but this is not the case. Small wonder that she is being described as weak and wobbly,

Early in the campaign, it was suggested that Jeremy Corbyn was weak. This is clearly not the case. He was elected leader of his party against the odds and survived a coup against him within a year. He has been an outsider in politics for the best part of 30 years and if this has not toughened him up, I am not sure what else has. I would also suggest that the Left are traditionally intransigent and I cannot believe for one minute that he would not do a deal with Europe that would not be the best interests of the people. Given his political history, I would have thought there would have been few better placed to stick to his guns and get the best deal possible.

Ian. How can Labour attack Theresa May for being a remainer when Corbyn was also? That is why Labour are quiet on that front. The fact that Corbyn and May are both really Eurosceptics is by the by with May making a "career decision" thinking that remain would win and Corbyn letting his party bully him into backing remain after years of being a sceptic.

So it is a cubject that Labour steer clear of. They can't attack May for something that Corbyn also did.
 
Just seen the past 3 videos posted by jonathan pie. Anyone watch him. Pretty funny in my opinion and bang on the money. They are pretty short so watchable. 3 minutes long

Yep I watch him all the time. The France election one was on point too.
 
Oh of course, how could I have got it so wrong. So it's not the Tories fault for austerity after all. Oh well suddenly that's all right then. They weren't complicit at all. Indeed they were fighting for more money to be spent on the social fabric. I remember it well.

You're getting desperate Imp.

And if Labour were in at that point with Brown you don;t think he would have done Austerity too? The EU were critical of Osborne not being austere enough for them. People have short memories. Even Germany and France were fully paid up members of the austerity club:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176
 
Caroline Lucas just moans about the same things over and over again. A tried and tested formula that she has never veered from and thus is well practised.
Farron is a joke and that is why the Lib Dems ratings are collapsing when they should have been recapturing some of their lost vote. While on here it seems people like him, most of the rest of the country don't.
Corbyn did really well but we are used to him being calm and looking like an adult. People on here may remember me remarking on this at his first PMQs while the media laid into him for not playing the pantomime act that the media want.
Angus Robertson is just a really big moaner about anything and everything AND his seat is being targetted by the Tories so he is a bit worried on top.
Wood is so wishy washy and never comes up with anything other than practised well repeated lines.
Rudd is a goverment attack dog repeater. What did you expect from her? She was the same when campaigning for Remain. She targets personalities not policies like when she attacked Boris rather than tell the country the positives about the EU.
Nuttall is way out of his depth and not worth assessing.

TV Debates aren't about the debate. That's why they are ridiculous. All they are about is trying to make sure your soundbite is one of the few that gets repeated on the News channels. Nothing to do with the actual debate. Just getting a snippet that will be repeated.
Each to their own.

Austerity isn't a Tory thing. Is the EU Tory? The whole EU did Austerity.
Come on Imps you can do better then this. Who decided what to cut in this country? It wasn't the EU was it. This is a austerity done by the Tories, they saw over the cuts and so are to blame.

Survation were miles off though. I posted it up the other day:

Damian Lyons Lowe, founder & chief executive of Survation: ‘Ed Miliband’

Our new ballot paper-prompted voting question, which we believe will produce results closer to the actual results tomorrow, currently shows:

CON 31.0% LAB 32.3% LD 10.1% UKIP 15.2% GRE 5.4% SNP 3.9% Others 1.8%.

This would indicate a seat picture of:

CON 270-280 LAB 270-275 SNP 45 LD 30 UKIP 6 GRE 1 RES 1.

Ed Miliband would then, on this basis be our most likely next prime minister, and LAB could be closer to the Conservatives in both votes and seats than is the current expectation – lending some “legitimacy” to the formation of a Labour minority government.
**** like the rest then
 
  • Like
Reactions: ImpSaint
And if Labour were in at that point with Brown you don;t think he would have done Austerity too? The EU were critical of Osborne not being austere enough for them. People have short memories. Even Germany and France were fully paid up members of the austerity club:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176
You are missing the point. I am calling out something that is effecting the poor and sick/disabled in this country. The Tories brought it in and decided to cut what they wanted. So they are the ones that are to blame for how badly more and more people living standards are. If Brown had come in and done the same I would have called it a Labour thing and be calling them out.
 
And if Labour were in at that point with Brown you don;t think he would have done Austerity too? The EU were critical of Osborne not being austere enough for them. People have short memories. Even Germany and France were fully paid up members of the austerity club:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10162176


It's true that the ECB governors, the French and German Governments, and David Cameron's governments were all equally guilty of the economic illiteracy that pushed austerity as a response to the global banking crisis. In so doing they prolonged a recession, turning it into a depression in all but name.

To suggest that Gordon brown would have made the same mistakes is just plain wrong. It was Gordon Brown who moved quickly to underwrite the British banking sector, shortly after the Americans had allowed Lehman Bros to go to the wall. In so doing so he persuaded the Americans to change course and so prevented a far worse fiasco from taking hold globally. He might have chosen his words badly when he talked about "saving the world", but in economic terms, that is what he did.

It's especially ironic that the right wing press got away with pinning the blame for the global financial crisis on the Labour Government. Gordon Brown showed a far more astute understanding, and a far prompter and more courageous response, than any other world leader then or since.

He also had the UK economy back to robust growth before George Osbourne's disastrous austerity measures pulled the plug on that.

When the history of the 21st Century's economic meltdown comes to be written, Gordon Brown is one of very few politicians world wide to whom history will be kind.
 
It's true that the ECB governors, the French and German Governments, and David Cameron's governments were all equally guilty of the economic illiteracy that pushed austerity as a response to the global banking crisis. In so doing they prolonged a recession, turning it into a depression in all but name.

To suggest that Gordon brown would have made the same mistakes is just plain wrong. It was Gordon Brown who moved quickly to underwrite the British banking sector, shortly after the Americans had allowed Lehman Bros to go to the wall. In so doing so he persuaded the Americans to change course and so prevented a far worse fiasco from taking hold globally. He might have chosen his words badly when he talked about "saving the world", but in economic terms, that is what he did.

It's especially ironic that the right wing press got away with pinning the blame for the global financial crisis on the Labour Government. Gordon Brown showed a far more astute understanding, and a far prompter and more courageous response, than any other world leader then or since.

He also had the UK economy back to robust growth before George Osbourne's disastrous austerity measures pulled the plug on that.

When the history of the 21st Century's economic meltdown comes to be written, Gordon Brown is one of very few politicians world wide to whom history will be kind.

The global financial crisis wasn't pinned on Gordon Brown. Some media might play that but not even the most Labour hating person believed that the global crisis was Labour/Brown's fault. What was pinned on Gordon Brown and Labour was how close they were to the City and how on their watch this happened.

It is ironic hearing a Labour leaner come up with this when they banged on about the "Tory recession" in the early nineties despite it being a "global" recession!!! That recession hit everyone else way before it hit us and the UK fended off that recession for a year more than the US.

Are we starting to understand that recessions do happen no matter what the government of the day is doing?

It is just opposition parties that play the easy card of blaming recessions on the incumbent.

All Brown was guilty of was letting the City have a freehand and deregulating. You could add selling the gold off when the market was low as well but then New Labour were always good at helping the rich to a good deal ;)
 
The global financial crisis wasn't pinned on Gordon Brown. Some media might play that but not even the most Labour hating person believed that the global crisis was Labour/Brown's fault. What was pinned on Gordon Brown and Labour was how close they were to the City and how on their watch this happened.

It is ironic hearing a Labour leaner come up with this when they banged on about the "Tory recession" in the early nineties despite it being a "global" recession!!! That recession hit everyone else way before it hit us and the UK fended off that recession for a year more than the US.

Are we starting to understand that recessions do happen no matter what the government of the day is doing?

It is just opposition parties that play the easy card of blaming recessions on the incumbent.

All Brown was guilty of was letting the City have a freehand and deregulating. You could add selling the gold off when the market was low as well but then New Labour were always good at helping the rich to a good deal ;)


Talk to an awful lot of people in this country and they will tell you that Labour caused the recession - I heard this the other day when out canvassing for Labour. They have been sold this story by the right wing press, and many people have swallowed it. The last Labour leadership took the decision, foolishly imo, not to bother defending the economic record of the Blair years, so effectively conceding the argument.

Brown did not deregulate the financial sector, Margaret Thatcher's govt did that. Brown did, as Chancellor, take the decision to continue with a light regulatory touch as long as the tax revenue was rolling in (being unaware of the extent to which the City was exposed to toxic US deritives).

But yes, I agree recessions are cyclical. How nations respond has a huge effect on how severe and how deep those recessions are. Austerity is the worst possible response. John Maynard Keynes pointed this out in the 1930s, and eventually Roosevelt's government in the US put the theory into practice. It's why they built the Hoover Dam. It's also why this time around, George Osbourne to his credit attempted to counter act the detrimental effects of his idealogically driven austerity budgets with capital projects such as Crossrail and HS2.

Edit: On the subject of the 90s recession, I'll give credit where it is due. Kenneth Clarke did an excellent job of mitigating it's worst effects once he replaced the hapless Norman Lamont as Chancellor. He handed Gordon Brown the reins of an economy well on the way to recovery. But then Kenneth Clarke has not followed the rest of his party down the ideological back alley they have been following since the days of the 'Mad Monk', Sir Keith Joseph.
 
Last edited:
TV Debates aren't about the debate. That's why they are ridiculous. All they are about is trying to make sure your soundbite is one of the few that gets repeated on the News channels. Nothing to do with the actual debate. Just getting a snippet that will be repeated.
Very true Imps. But also how someone can cope when everyone else on that stage is trying to cause them to buckle under pressure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ImpSaint
You can't blame Brown for the financial crisis but you can blame him for the position of the UK economy at the time. Here's what Ken Clarke had to say about Gordon Brown in 2005, well before the crash.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/apr/25/election2005.economy

Excessive borrowing? Public finances should have started running a surplus by this point? Surely not!

Our economy has recovered just fine. Not spectacularly but not terribly either. You can't credibly borrow to invest when you're already up to your eyeballs in debt and lenders are about to start charging you higher interest because you haven't been paying down your current debts. That's all down to Brown. About the only time when he ran a surplus was in his first couple of years as Chancellor, when he stuck to Ken Clarke's spending plans.

Also, the idea that Keynesianism is a formula for recovery just doesn't match what happens in the real world. You can cite the US economy in the 1930s but what about the UK economy at about the same time? The UK slashed government spending (Ramsay MacDonald was thrown out of the Labour Party for going along with this) and proceeded to recover much faster than the US. Now this is quite simplistic - I've seen people argue the real key to the 1930s recoveries was how quickly a country ditched the gold standard and the problems in the Eurozone show the difficulties economies have when they don't have a floating currency - but it shows that spend, spend, spend isn't the only ( mor even the best) answer. The French weren't fans of austerity so rejected it by electing Hollande in 2012 and their economy hasn't recovered as well as ours since then. The Japanese have tried a few times to give their economy a Keynesian boost since 1990. It hasn't worked, it's just left them with a vast national debt. So you can't claim that spending is the unquestioned route to recovery.

Even when it does work it comes at a cost. The 1970s (it's that decade again!) was when Keynesian economics finally left the U.K. in a financial mess and forced Jim Callaghan to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF. Callaghan then admitted "We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step."

Gove on TV last night suggested the Tories will start campaigning more on the economy and I think that's a sensible move. Labour are claiming they can fund a massive spending spree just by taxing business and the top 5% of earners. It won't work - when France tried to tax the richest in society the rich just left the country. If/when people realise that increased tax on business is unlikely to raise as much money as predicted but is likely to mean lower wages and fewer jobs and that they will end up having to pay more tax themselves Corbyn's plans may not look as appealing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ImpSaint and BobbyD
Regular one when collecting for Foodbank. Allegedly, "I Daniel Blake" is lefty propaganda. When I say that it understates the situation I am looked at pityingly. Heigh ho.

They should come to work with me. I step over homeless people under the bridge every day on my way in to work in Finsbury Park. This was not the case 10 years ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saints_Alive
You can't blame Brown for the financial crisis but you can blame him for the position of the UK economy at the time. Here's what Ken Clarke had to say about Gordon Brown in 2005, well before the crash.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/apr/25/election2005.economy

Excessive borrowing? Public finances should have started running a surplus by this point? Surely not!

Our economy has recovered just fine. Not spectacularly but not terribly either. You can't credibly borrow to invest when you're already up to your eyeballs in debt and lenders are about to start charging you higher interest because you haven't been paying down your current debts. That's all down to Brown. About the only time when he ran a surplus was in his first couple of years as Chancellor, when he stuck to Ken Clarke's spending plans.

Also, the idea that Keynesianism is a formula for recovery just doesn't match what happens in the real world. You can cite the US economy in the 1930s but what about the UK economy at about the same time? The UK slashed government spending (Ramsay MacDonald was thrown out of the Labour Party for going along with this) and proceeded to recover much faster than the US. Now this is quite simplistic - I've seen people argue the real key to the 1930s recoveries was how quickly a country ditched the gold standard and the problems in the Eurozone show the difficulties economies have when they don't have a floating currency - but it shows that spend, spend, spend isn't the only ( mor even the best) answer. The French weren't fans of austerity so rejected it by electing Hollande in 2012 and their economy hasn't recovered as well as ours since then. The Japanese have tried a few times to give their economy a Keynesian boost since 1990. It hasn't worked, it's just left them with a vast national debt. So you can't claim that spending is the unquestioned route to recovery.

Even when it does work it comes at a cost. The 1970s (it's that decade again!) was when Keynesian economics finally left the U.K. in a financial mess and forced Jim Callaghan to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF. Callaghan then admitted "We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step."

Gove on TV last night suggested the Tories will start campaigning more on the economy and I think that's a sensible move. Labour are claiming they can fund a massive spending spree just by taxing business and the top 5% of earners. It won't work - when France tried to tax the richest in society the rich just left the country. If/when people realise that increased tax on business is unlikely to raise as much money as predicted but is likely to mean lower wages and fewer jobs and that they will end up having to pay more tax themselves Corbyn's plans may not look as appealing.


Haven't got time right now to take this point by point. However, there's a couple of assertions you make that I can't leave unchallenged.

 
I think that Corbyn is clawing back a lot of voters that Ed Miliband lost during his poor campaign in 2015.

And more besides. He has made the Labour Party worth voting for again IMO.
I still don't think it will be enough though. Had a conversation with someone earlier who came out with "well yeah, majority of crime is committed by immigrants isn't it".
The right-wing rhetoric and the level it is ingrained into our society makes me want to cry.

The fear of anyone different, and inability to want to help others horrifies me.
 
And more besides. He has made the Labour Party worth voting for again IMO.
I still don't think it will be enough though. Had a conversation with someone earlier who came out with "well yeah, majority of crime is committed by immigrants isn't it".
The right-wing rhetoric and the level it is ingrained into our society makes me want to cry.

The fear of anyone different, and inability to want to help others horrifies me.
Whatever happens next Thursday, the momentum gathered by Labour in this campaign will continue into the next Parliament and beyond. If May wins, the Brexit negotiations will be such a disaster for the Tories that she could even be out of office before 2022. In fact many people are now saying the Tories realise what a train wreck May is and want to lose the election to give them an excuse to dump her. A few Tory candidates have stated publicly that May has completely ****ed the campaign up.

Corbyn, on the other hand, has got stronger and stronger by the day.
 
Whatever happens next Thursday, the momentum gathered by Labour in this campaign will continue into the next Parliament and beyond. If May wins, the Brexit negotiations will be such a disaster for the Tories that she could even be out of office before 2022. In fact many people are now saying the Tories realise what a train wreck May is and want to lose the election to give them an excuse to dump her. A few Tory candidates have stated publicly that May has completely ****ed the campaign up.

Corbyn, on the other hand, has got stronger and stronger by the day.

If the Tories were to win though, would Corbyn be allowed to stay on as boss? I suspect when he goes the next leader might be back to the blairites that have taken over the party.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OddRiverOakWizards
If the Tories were to win though, would Corbyn be allowed to stay on as boss? I suspect when he goes the next leader might be back to the blairites that have taken over the party.

Approximately 300,000 party members voted for Corbyn to be Labour leader, although I think that included some block voting. That would take some shifting.