Off Topic Politics Thread

[SaintinSerbia]

Now when we started the not606 politics thread some were worried that it would end up in a hideous name calling disaster. I think it's gone pretty well. A lot of reasoned well thought out arguments? I'm impressed with all of us! It's pretty obvious the American and the British voting systems are very flawed. Proportional Representation must be the answer but how do you do it? Hilary won the most votes but isn't President. In the UK if you divided up the MPs proportionally the government would be very different. The problem is that we have a wonderful system where we divide up the country into 650 sections and the winner in each section gets to represent that section. It doesn't matter if a party came second every time - they won't have an MP (but may have 30% of the vote) So if you go to PR how do you divvy up the MPs? You have to allocate MPs to areas where they didn't win locally. Won't work. My best scenario is reduce the 650 to maybe just the counties - PR the MPs per county - you'll lose your very local representative but gain a county? Come on not606 surely we can come up with something better!

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Thing is, they're protesting against the result of the election when they recently criticised Trump for not saying he would accept the result (because he didn't ever say he wouldn't accept the result).

I think Trump's statement that maybe there might need to be a recount or something like the 2000 election could happen so there are circumstances where he would wait is fair.

That, however, was a massive backpedal from him that dodged the issue. Trump set himself up for that when he said the only way he would lose is if the election was rigged.

Trump declared the burden of proof to be "guilty until proven innocent," and on top of that he then appointed himself the judge. Then he acted aggrieved that people would ask him that question and not the other candidates. When you declare yourself the judge, don't be mad when people ask for your ruling.

But again, a CANDIDATE literally declaring that if he does not win the results are rigged is not even close to a private citizen figuratively declaring that Trump "is not my President." They're not questioning the legitimacy of the election.

 

[Puck]

I think Trump's statement that maybe there might need to be a recount or something like the 2000 election could happen so there are circumstances where he would wait is fair.

That, however, was a massive backpedal from him that dodged the issue. Trump set himself up for that when he said the only way he would lose is if the election was rigged.

Trump declared the burden of proof to be "guilty until proven innocent," and on top of that he then appointed himself the judge. Then he acted aggrieved that people would ask him that question and not the other candidates. When you declare yourself the judge, don't be mad when people ask for your ruling.

But again, a CANDIDATE literally declaring that if he does not win the results are rigged is not even close to a private citizen figuratively declaring that Trump "is not my President." They're not questioning the legitimacy of the election.

I'm not saying they are exactly the same. They don't NEED to be exactly the same for there to be an irony and an element of hypocrisy.

 

[SotonOldBoy]

That is my point. Trump is going to change that.

Sorry I do not see that happening, but hey I live here. Obama care is not working and 90% of the people agree on that. Hilary even said she would change it, So apparently Trumps changes are not going to make it better but worse, time will tell but I am not panicking.

 

[Beef]

Sorry I do not see that happening, but hey I live here. Obama care is not working and 90% of the people agree on that. Hilary even said she would change it, So apparently Trumps changes are not going to make it better but worse, time will tell but I am not panicking.

It didn't work due to all the interfering by the Republicans. Oh look who is in charge now..

Also where did you get the 90% from?

 

[SotonOldBoy]

It didn't work due to all the interfering by the Republicans. Oh look who is in charge now..

Also where did you get the 90% from?

There are basically two ways to get health ins in the USA. One is through your employer and you pay out of your pay check a fixed amount every month. You get covered for 80% of the cost of DR services and you pay the remaining 20%. You also have a maximum co-pay and when this is reached the Insurance company who holds the insurance provided by your employer cover the full 100%. Now Obama wanted to provide affordable heath care for the people who work for company's who do not offer health care, Obama care provides three levels of health insurance and everyone without health care has to pick one of the three levels. The lowest level has a low monthly payment but a higher deductible and the higher level has a high monthly payment but a low deductible. Now to keep this affordable Obama was relying on the young, who will not need health care at the moment, to fund for this system to work that will cover the high costs for the elderly who need more heath care. Unfortunately this has not happened and an announcement was made a month ago that all the payments for Obama care were going to rise as much as 75% in most states. Also there were about 7 major insurance company's that were covering this insurance at agreed low service fees with doctor and hospitals and now I believe it is down to 2 major ins company's. So now participants have to pay 75% more for less choice of provider and the majority of people using this health care are not happy and want it to change. But what does it matter, from all of your posts on the election, you are having a total melt down and Trump is going to destroy the free world in a week.

 

[Beef]

There are basically two ways to get health ins in the USA. One is through your employer and you pay out of your pay check a fixed amount every month. You get covered for 80% of the cost of DR services and you pay the remaining 20%. You also have a maximum co-pay and when this is reached the Insurance company who holds the insurance provided by your employer cover the full 100%. Now Obama wanted to provide affordable heath care for the people who work for company's who do not offer health care, Obama care provides three levels of health insurance and everyone without health care has to pick one of the three levels. The lowest level has a low monthly payment but a higher deductible and the higher level has a high monthly payment but a low deductible. Now to keep this affordable Obama was relying on the young, who will not need health care at the moment, to fund for this system to work that will cover the high costs for the elderly who need more heath care. Unfortunately this has not happened and an announcement was made a month ago that all the payments for Obama care were going to rise as much as 75% in most states. Also there were about 7 major insurance company's that were covering this insurance at agreed low service fees with doctor and hospitals and now I believe it is down to 2 major ins company's. So now participants have to pay 75% more for less choice of provider and the majority of people using this health care are not happy and want it to change. But what does it matter, from all of your posts on the election, you are having a total melt down and Trump is going to destroy the free world in a week.

No meltdown here. Just find it kind of sad that some one like Trump and GOP can get in. Minorites and the LGBT are now even worse off and already 6 transgender people have killed themselves over Trump getting in. GOP want to stop the ACA that 22 m are on which will make them worse off as well. But yep just call me fearing for people is a meltdown.

 

[ImpSaint]

No meltdown here. Just find it kind of sad that some one like Trump and GOP can get in. Minorites and the LGBT are now even worse off and already 6 transgender people have killed themselves over Trump getting in. GOP want to stop the ACA that 22 m are on which will make them worse off as well. But yep just call me fearing for people is a meltdown.

I get your worry about LGBT Beefy but he isn't even in yet and many on his team are saying he is not at all homophobic and is merely going to continue what is already there on LGBT issues.

Even CNN have interviewed people about Obamacare r.e. the rising costs and they (CNN) are fully behind Obama and the democrat angle. Can you imagine being like a chap earlier today where you earn $500 a week and are looking at premiums of £300 just for yourself (let alone a family) for healthcare? He had no choice but to pay that because if he didn't he would have to pay the first $8k or so of any treatment. That was what CNN showed.

This was a guy from Ohio or Pennsylvania. One of the 2 (they are focusing on those swing states.)

We get such a good deal from our NHS it is very hard to comprehend.

This is why I find the British argument so hard. Is the NHS underfunded? Yes but........why is it underfunded. Where is the extra money going? Are we going to train up and put it into frontline services or continue to push money into channels where the money disappears to those who already are doing pretty well out of the system?

 

[Beef]

I get your worry about LGBT Beefy but he isn't even in yet and many on his team are saying he is not at all homophobic and is merely going to continue what is already there on LGBT issues.

Even CNN have interviewed people about Obamacare r.e. the rising costs and they (CNN) are fully behind Obama and the democrat angle. Can you imagine being like a chap earlier today where you earn $500 a week and are looking at premiums of £300 just for yourself (let alone a family) for healthcare? He had no choice but to pay that because if he didn't he would have to pay the first $8k or so of any treatment. That was what CNN showed.

This was a guy from Ohio or Pennsylvania. One of the 2 (they are focusing on those swing states.)

We get such a good deal from our NHS it is very hard to comprehend.

This is why I find the British argument so hard. Is the NHS underfunded? Yes but........why is it underfunded. Where is the extra money going? Are we going to train up and put it into frontline services or continue to push money into channels where the money disappears to those who already are doing pretty well out of the system?

Pence his running mate actually believes in conversion therapy for gay people. That tells you something about his team. I know ObamaCare wasn't perfect but that was mainly due to the republicans vetoing a hell of a lot of ****. The US health care system is a total mess.

 

[ImpSaint]

Pence his running mate actually believes in conversion therapy for gay people. That tells you something about his team. I know ObamaCare wasn't perfect but that was maninly due to the republicans vetoing a hell of a lot of ****. The US health care system is a total mess.

It doesn't tell you about his team. It tells you about America. They aren't like the UK where we pay lip service to being Christians when we don't even believe anymore. Like it or lump it there are a lot of believers over there and at the end of the day no matter what side of politics you are on you have to get the votes from your electorate.

 

[TheSecondStain]

No meltdown here. Just find it kind of sad that some one like Trump and GOP can get in. Minorites and the LGBT are now even worse off and already 6 transgender people have killed themselves over Trump getting in. GOP want to stop the ACA that 22 m are on which will make them worse off as well. But yep just call me fearing for people is a meltdown.

I think there is a genuine fear that Western World values have lurched back decades and to the far right wing. So it seems that significant numbers of people have never got the idea that we are all one, in the end. According to the world that we presently live in, we might be charitable when celebrities encourage us to be, when it suits them. We can give and receive presents at Xmas, and chocolate at Easter, and selectively at birthdays, because that's what you do at those times, and that's the extent of our thoughts towards others. In all other senses we think of ourselves and we try to make sure we are at the top of our particular pile and **** everyone else. During the post-WWII labour movement, and especially during the 1960's, we began to lose that last sentence. We began to be inclusive. We began to make our first steps towards a maturity in society. And now what was previously and progressively being erased but was merely hidden, is now out in the open. Not only that, the attitude of "us first, us only, me first, me only", has been officially endorsed in 2016. Well, not by me.

 

[TheSecondStain]

It doesn't tell you about his team. It tells you about America. They aren't like the UK where we pay lip service to being Christians when we don't even believe anymore. Like it or lump it there are a lot of believers over there and at the end of the day no matter what side of politics you are on you have to get the votes from your electorate.

Not your best analogy considering the simply huge numbers of church goers in the USA. As a more mature society, the UK realises that answers to questions that don't actually exist, are not to be found while kneeling down in a building so as to feel better about onesself.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

I'm not saying they are exactly the same. They don't NEED to be exactly the same for there to be an irony and an element of hypocrisy.

Alright fair enough, I guess. But to clarify-- I'm not saying that things have to be exactly the same. I'm saying that to me claiming an election is rigged or corrupt vs expressing your displeasure for the election results are 100% entirely different and therefore to me there is not even the faintest whiff of hypocrisy here.

But we disagree, that's cool

 

[ImpSaint]

I think there is a genuine fear that Western World values have lurched back decades and to the far right wing. So it seems that significant numbers of people have never got the idea that we are all one, in the end. According to the world that we presently live in, we might be charitable when celebrities encourage us to be, when it suits them. We can give and receive presents at Xmas, and chocolate at Easter, and selectively at birthdays, because that's what you do at those times, and that's the extent of our thoughts towards others. In all other senses we think of ourselves and we try to make sure we are at the top of our particular pile and **** everyone else. During the post-WWII labour movement, and especially during the 1960's, we began to lose that last sentence. We began to be inclusive. We began to make our first steps towards a maturity in society. And now what was previously and progressively being erased but was merely hidden, is now out in the open. Not only that, the attitude of "us first, us only, me first, me only", has been officially endorsed in 2016. Well, not by me.

I am much more of a realist and I think that we can reach a point where the world can get on very well together. My theory is that those in power keep on trying to pretend we are further ahead than we are and paint things as so rosy when they aren't and it keeps on setting us back. This is my argument at the minute. We can get there but we have to stop trying to pretend we are further down the road than we are because it leaves us open to attack from those who don;t want that whether they be racist right wingers or radical terrorists.

pretending we are further along the road than we are does nothing more than slow the whole process down and pushing the Arab Spring didn't help when that region is not ready yet. This is a long game and probably not something I will see in my lifetime let alone other people's lifetime but world leaders no matter if they are ours or Americans or German trying to force things will never achieve what they say they want to achieve. They are just wanting to be "the one." In a hundred years maybe we will reach it but we won't see it. Our grandchildren might though so it is still important to hope. Just need our leaders to step back and not think of glory all the time and eventually we will get there.

 

[ImpSaint]

Not your best analogy considering the simply huge numbers of church goers in the USA. As a more mature society, the UK realises that answers to questions that don't actually exist, are not to be found while kneeling down in a building so as to feel better about onesself.

Not sure I'm understanding you. I'm saying we (British) pay lip service to being Christian whereas Americans actually do go to Church a lot and do believe in God.

At the end of the day the electorate is the electorate and you can't just ignore the fact that so many in the USA do believe in God or you are Corbyn not caring about being elected and achieving none of your goals. You help no-one that way.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Sorry I do not see that happening, but hey I live here. Obama care is not working and 90% of the people agree on that. Hilary even said she would change it, So apparently Trumps changes are not going to make it better but worse, time will tell but I am not panicking.

Trump is not going to change Obamacare. He is going to repeal it entirely.

It is an important distinction. You are correct that a majority of people (though nowhere near 90%) believe that Obamacare needs fixing. But many of the people who are unhappy about the rate increases and are demanding changes would otherwise not have insurance at all.

The percent of Americans that want a complete repeal immediately vs those that either want no change, changes, or repeal but only after an alternative national healthcare plan is in play is more around 50/50.

 

[Beef]

Trump is not going to change Obamacare. He is going to repeal it entirely.

Which I was getting at. Some don't see it though.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Not sure I'm understanding you. I'm saying we (British) pay lip service to being Christian whereas Americans actually do go to Church a lot and do believe in God.

At the end of the day the electorate is the electorate and you can't just ignore the fact that so many in the USA do believe in God or you are Corbyn not caring about being elected and achieving none of your goals. You help no-one that way.

You are wrong. There is not only NOT a big push for repeal of gay marriage by the electorate, the majority of them are in favor of allowing it.

 

[TheSecondStain]

I am much more of a realist and I think that we can reach a point where the world can get on very well together. My theory is that those in power keep on trying to pretend we are further ahead than we are and paint things as so rosy when they aren't and it keeps on setting us back. This is my argument at the minute. We can get there but we have to stop trying to pretend we are further down the road than we are because it leaves us open to attack from those who don;t want that whether they be racist right wingers or radical terrorists.

pretending we are further along the road than we are does nothing more than slow the whole process down and pushing the Arab Spring didn't help when that region is not ready yet. This is a long game and probably not something I will see in my lifetime let alone other people's lifetime but world leaders no matter if they are ours or Americans or German trying to force things will never achieve what they say they want to achieve. They are just wanting to be "the one." In a hundred years maybe we will reach it but we won't see it. Our grandchildren might though so it is still important to hope. Just need our leaders to step back and not think of glory all the time and eventually we will get there.

Society finally progresses at the pace of the slowest. But we need people in the vanguard to show the way. It has always been the case.

 

[Beef]

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