Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

Another tidbit (not my words)

May's camp already negotiating with Crabb and Fox supporters to
ensure Gove overtakes Leadsom in next ballot

Gove may have already agreed after that vote to step down and
allow the coronation of May as he recognises he doesn't have enough
members' support after the Boris assassination. He will position this decision
as sacrificing his campaign for the good of the country.

Likely to be no vote for members and May and Osborne ( Foreign Secretary) now
reinstalled as chief Strategist - will be in full charge of the Party.

Have to recognise Osborne's supreme political survival skills
which will set him up for PM when May retires probably in 2023
- a brilliant 10 days despatching Cameron,Gove, and Johnson.

Brexit will be long forgotten.

 

[ImpSaint]

Chilcot report: MPs plan to impeach Tony Blair over Iraq War using ancient law

Move could be made because of Labour leader’s alleged misleading of Parliament

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...iry-iraq-war-report-impeach-law-a7115266.html


-----------------------------------


“Well, you can argue that you never make the final decision till you make your decision. But actually they’d bloody decided. That’s the reality"

Tony Blair had “bloody decided” to invade Iraq before trying to seek UN approval, a former Navy chief said.

Speaking ahead of Wednesday's Chilcot Report, former First Sea Lord, Lord West, demolishes the claim that Mr Blair only decided to take military action after exhausting all diplomatic routes.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blair-looking-reasons-join-8349028

 

[Schad]

Did England sink into the ocean or something? I know it's low-volume overnight trading, but the pound is in freefall right now. Again.

 

[SaintsForTheWin]

I can't see how Blair can be a war criminal... The vote went to Parliament, so every MP that voted for is also a war criminal? The media are a joke.

 

[SaintsForTheWin]

Did England sink into the ocean or something? I know it's low-volume overnight trading, but the pound is in freefall right now. Again.

Keep bearing the good news. I'm still searching for that elusive negative of leaving the EU even though we haven't left yet.

 

[fatletiss]

Did England sink into the ocean or something? I know it's low-volume overnight trading, but the pound is in freefall right now. Again.

Feels like we're putting the Grate back in Britain, not the Great.

 

[davecg69]

Did England sink into the ocean or something? I know it's low-volume overnight trading, but the pound is in freefall right now. Again.

And still the people I know who voted to leave are saying "it's not too bad. The pounds not going down (against the euro)" and tell me I'm a miserable old git if I voice my continued concerns .....

 

[Archers Road]

And still the people I know who voted to leave are saying "it's not too bad. The pounds not going down (against the euro)" and tell me I'm a miserable old git if I voice my continued concerns .....

Problem is, people have spent weeks convincing themselves to believe any old crap written on the side of buses. If economics is just a matter of opinion and all opinions, no matter how weak or strong the evidence, are equally valid, then reality is whatever I choose it to be.

In these circumstances it might take a while for people to wake up to the reality of the harm the UK just inflicted on itself and the world. Although I suspect reality is going to get a lot harder to ignore in the coming weeks. Days, even.

 

[davecg69]

Problem is, people have spent weeks convincing themselves to believe any old crap written on the side of buses. If economics is just a matter of opinion and all opinions, no matter how weak or strong the evidence, are equally valid, then reality is whatever I choose it to be.

In these circumstances it might take a while for people to wake up to the reality of the harm the UK just inflicted on itself and the world. Although I suspect reality is going to get a lot harder to ignore in the coming weeks. Days, even.

What seriously concerns me is that these people are well educated and (I thought) reasonable folk. One of them is even a financial analyst (not for me thank god) ...... I just continue to quietly despair .....
But go along with what Fats said earlier - I don't like the decision, I am seriously worried about the long term effect, but I respect it and someone now needs to sort out the mess - as it is, all I can see now is the "Leave" campaigners distancing themselves and leaving it up to someone else to clear up their mess.

 

[ImpSaint]

I can't see how Blair can be a war criminal... The vote went to Parliament, so every MP that voted for is also a war criminal? The media are a joke.

On issues like this only the top team of the government of the time (like the Cobra team) get to see all the details. The other parliamentarians have to decide on what information they are given. They don't get to see all the info.

 

[Archers Road]

What seriously concerns me is that these people are well educated and (I thought) reasonable folk. One of them is even a financial analyst (not for me thank god) ...... I just continue to quietly despair .....
But go along with what Fats said earlier - I don't like the decision, I am seriously worried about the long term effect, but I respect it and someone now needs to sort out the mess - as it is, all I can see now is the "Leave" campaigners distancing themselves and leaving it up to someone else to clear up their mess.

We're in desperate need of leadership, for sure. Not really seeing that anywhere. Which creates a worrying vacuum. Scary times.

 

[SaintsForTheWin]

On issues like this only the top team of the government of the time (like the Cobra team) get to see all the details. The other parliamentarians have to decide on what information they are given. They don't get to see all the info.

By this logic, the bullshit Farage, Gove and Boris put out in their out campaign means they should be at fault for the millions of pounds they're losing the Uk.

Anyways war is war, you know what you're voting for.

 

[Schad]

In these circumstances it might take a while for people to wake up to the reality of the harm the UK just inflicted on itself and the world. Although I suspect reality is going to get a lot harder to ignore in the coming weeks. Days, even.

This isn't even the tip of the iceberg. It's a faint ripple in the waves above the iceberg. There'll be a lot of mini-panics, but the real concern is that the UK has few to no bullets left if the economy sinks into recession. Interest rates are still damned close to zero. Carney has already given banks the green light to leverage to the hilt. Debt-to-GDP is at 90%, which is workable, but does make a massive counter-cyclical spend difficult. Not that the Tories appear to have any idea what that is, mind.

As bad as it would be if the UK entered recession and dragged the rest of Europe (or the world) into recession, heavens help you if the UK drops and Europe more or less keeps its footing, because you'll end up with substantial inflation in the prices of food and consumer goods paired with rising unemployment and dropping wages. Unless the UK can flip a switch overnight and become an export-driven economy (which is highly unlikely given that you're going to be in the process of erecting some form of as-yet-undetermined hindrances to trade; export-driven businesses are going to be pretty cautious about expanding) it's going to hurt, and hurt for years.

 

[greensaint]

We're in desperate need of leadership, for sure. Not really seeing that anywhere. Which creates a worrying vacuum. Scary times.

Telling that Teresa May issues an urgent missive about re-commisioning Trident missles, like that's the priority and what we're all talking about down the pub.

Playing to the Tory party, not the British people who (again) will end up with a Prime Minister they did not elect.

 

[ImpSaint]

Telling that Teresa May issues an urgent missive about re-commisioning Trident missles, like that's the priority and what we're all talking about down the pub.

Playing to the Tory party, not the British people who (again) will end up with a Prime Minister they did not elect.

Theresa May's "trident" message was to try an coax Fox's supporters over knowing he would be out quickly. Trident isn't that big an issue to members. Defence, yes but they are more concerned about defence as a whole and the diminishing air and navy fleets as well as staff numbers.

 

[The Ides of March]

What seriously concerns me is that these people are well educated and (I thought) reasonable folk. One of them is even a financial analyst (not for me thank god) ...... I just continue to quietly despair .....
But go along with what Fats said earlier - I don't like the decision, I am seriously worried about the long term effect, but I respect it and someone now needs to sort out the mess - as it is, all I can see now is the "Leave" campaigners distancing themselves and leaving it up to someone else to clear up their mess.

I don't respect the decision because I feel that the UK populace has been bullied by certain sectors of the media in developing a mind-set that has been hostile to the EU over the past 30 years, and I do not like being bullied. So it is time for the Remain campaign to be as proactive as possible. Writing to Eurosceptic Tory MPs to resign from the Conservative Party and join UKIP because the reality is they are not Tories (they took us in to EU at the beginning so it seems to me that the party has been hijacked by UKIPPERS!!)

We also need to consider the needs of Gibraltarians (near 100% voted to Remain), Scotland where 2 out of 3 voted to Remain and of course Northern Ireland where 55% voted to Remain. When the new PM is elected by the "Conservative" party, the needs of these people should be considered first and foremost, so the decision of the PM and Parliament is to reject the Referendum result and not worry about LEAVERS kicking up a fuss.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Not my words hence in italics:

So Stephen Crabb pulls out and backs Theresa May, whilst Nicky Morgan says it should be "a heavyweight" to go up against her in the final round.

Hmmm it sounds to me a lot like the Theresa May campaign is desperately trying to strike down Leadsom and give a boost to Michael Gove to make damn sure it is May versus Gove in the final ballot of members.
They must surely be thinking that Leadsom poses too big a challenge to May. They obviously think that Gove will be easier to beat in a head to head contest.

And as someone who was NOT supporting May, that makes me doubt her even more. As we all know, David Cameron used to surround himself with pygmies like Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan and Liz Truss to make himself look good. Some of the people he appointed to his cabinet were so terrible it made his leadership look competant!

And Theresa May seems to be behaving in exactly the same way, from what I have seen. Leadsom poses a real threat to her ambitions, so we must do anything we can to make sure that is not the choice on offer.

With Fox out, I am now backing Leadsom wholeheartedly.
I don't want either May OR Gove. But let me be clear, if the May camp are at all involved in manipulating this contest to get Gove into the final two instead of Leadsom, then I will be voting for Gove just to spite May.
Conservative MPs need to think about who they REALLY want for leader when it goes to the membership. Because their plotting may well end up with the unintended consequence of getting a leader they don't actually want.

And I cast my mind back to 2001 when everyone wanted Michael Portillo for leader. But MPs in the Portillo campaign were too clever by half and they leant their support to other candidates to try to manipulate who Portillo's opponent would be on the final ballot. And they ended up with Portillo dropping out and the final contest being between Ken Clarke and Iain Duncan-Smith.
...That worked out well for them!

Clearly some Conservative members (I assume that's who this is) have learned nothing from the mess that Labour find themselves in and think it would be a good idea to follow Labour down the same route. Hopefully they are not all like this. Quite concerning that they have the decision of who will be the next PM in their hands.

 

[fatletiss]

I don't respect the decision because I feel that the UK populace has been bullied by certain sectors of the media in developing a mind-set that has been hostile to the EU over the past 30 years, and I do not like being bullied. So it is time for the Remain campaign to be as proactive as possible. Writing to Eurosceptic Tory MPs to resign from the Conservative Party and join UKIP because the reality is they are not Tories (they took us in to EU at the beginning so it seems to me that the party has been hijacked by UKIPPERS!!)

We also need to consider the needs of Gibraltarians (near 100% voted to Remain), Scotland where 2 out of 3 voted to Remain and of course Northern Ireland where 55% voted to Remain. When the new PM is elected by the "Conservative" party, the needs of these people should be considered first and foremost, so the decision of the PM and Parliament is to reject the Referendum result and not worry about LEAVERS kicking up a fuss.

Ides, the only way I would accept a rejection of the result would be if there was some event that genuinely signalled a catastrophic future, or a major problem with the negotiations wit the EU. Even then, I think we'd be left with egg on faces and in a position of weakness.

It's ****, but it is what "we" chose. It has been ill thought through, because people didn't really believe it could happen. They could have safeguarded and had written in that a certain majority was needed to make the change, but they didn't. They held a democratic election and the result is the result. Scary as it is.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

Ides, the only way I would accept a rejection of the result would be if there was some event that genuinely signalled a catastrophic future, or a major problem with the negotiations wit the EU. Even then, I think we'd be left with egg on faces and in a position of weakness.

It's ****, but it is what "we" chose. It has been ill thought through, because people didn't really believe it could happen. They could have safeguarded and had written in that a certain majority was needed to make the change, but they didn't. They held a democratic election and the result is the result. Scary as it is.

Or maybe something not legally correct with the referendum. All highly unlikely.

 

[Archers Road]

What have just participated in was not an election, it was a plebiscite (which literaly translates as letting the plebs have their say).

In a representative democracy, which is what we have in the UK, we elect representatives to govern and make decisions on our behalf. There is a constitutional precedent for this; there is no constitutional precedent for government by plebiscite; and there is no legal or constitutional imperative on government to implement the outcome of that plebiscite (referendum). Whether there is a moral obligation is another question, but legally the government, having consulted us the people, is free to take whichever action it deems to be in our best interests.