Off Topic Political Debate

I assume those I converse with on here tell the truth. I give them that respect. If you tell me something about you or your family then I simply believe you and do not need proof. An example is only that - an example - it is not something that "wins" an argument but it can illustrate a point. However it is also true that you give us plenty of information about where you live and your life experiences so it is a bit odd to prevent others doing so. Your arguments do not stand on their own merits - they need examples in your case usually statistics to "prove" them. When you quote one of your statistics you are simply giving mass unascribed examples - do you really find that more convincing? I could not care less about statistics on social mobility - they mean squat. Please do not try to link people living abroad with one of your hobby horses. Next you will tell me people have moved abroad because of low party membership. There are hundreds of reasons why people live abroad - OFH could tell us his if you only allowed it.
I could give you dozens of reasons why industrial relations have been bad in the UK - and many would be connected with Unions - social mobility would not be on my list - but a desire for more money or better working conditions would be.

 

Ricky school always has produced the best for society (vested interest moi of course I went there) and it was far better for Mr Forsyth retaining streaming even after conversion to comprehensive.

 

Or being member of a golf club or indeed in the past political in circle of the union....

 

When Forsyth retired the school nose-dived - I had to get my fourth daughter extra curricula lessons in maths to offset the appalling teaching she was receiving and then had to take my son out after his poor GCSEs and put him into Watford Boys (my old school) where he got five grade A "A" levels. The head teacher has massive importance to a school.

 

This in itself is not surprising. The same is true in Germany in that so many doctors studied in Gottingen....however, this should not assume the proportions that people from outside that club have no chances of advancement...or that it becomes a kind of closed shop. The debate was about family relationships and how these can be used to climb the ladder...all I was doing was adding other forms of group identity which can be used for the same ends.....if you woke up one morning and found that all of your work colleagues belonged to the same religious sect and you were outside of it then you would feel unnerved....right ?

 

We didn't. We mentioned intelligence. Does that not exist?

 

My personal financial wealth and I prefer to quote experience and real world than statistics which like the bible can be interpreted to prove anything would have been far greater had I chose not to emigrate and immigrate but my wealth of experience and satisfaction would have been much less. The point in our system is we have the choice albeit how we access the choices and whether we can see and grasp them is greatly affected by mental health, education and family / peers.

 

Funny you should mention that. A friend and former boss emigrated to the USA to be a VP of a multi million dollar organization. He is an atheist who comes from the "school" in France that produces all the economics gurus but the most difficult thing for him in settling was that he was not Christian and found himself excluded from many of the social circles that do business over there. Of course where you study, where you play golf, where you play rugby, your lodge etc. impact on your career.

 

Think this has got muddled hasn't it - needs editing doesn't it?

 

Sorry Cologne but this is true (honest) - when I left Uniiversity I joined the Civil Service Admin grade. I was one of six taken into the Inland Revenue - the other five were Oxbridge. The fact I got in shows that Oxbridge itself was not the only factor - the others were all ridiculously intelligent

 

Don't think so maybe my poor English. Migration for me has been driven by an inquisative nature and wish to live life as an experience. Had I stayed in the Watford area and built a career locally in safe city I would in all likelihood be earning 3 or 4 times what I do now and sitting on a much larger property portfolio. The point is that with a basic level of education that around 80% of the youth of today access I had all the choices open. My avenues of choice were greatly influenced probably negatively in financial terms by family but the point is we have a great deal of freedom of choice and any measure of social mobility is irrelevent as many (99% plus) choose and are not forced not to change...

 

I think it is time for a bit of Forrest Gump.
Life is like a homely kitchen where beautiful cakes are prepared cooked and eaten. Some people are concerned with baking the cakes -making them big and tasty so that everyone can have some but they are not necessarily good at doling out fair slices. Other people put all their energy into taking a cake that has been made - not making more - but trying to make sure not one person gets a gram more than another person

 

Leo....Social mobility is a sociological expression. If the only contribution I can make to that is to say that I knew someone whose father was a dustman and he became a millionaire, then that is not enough because it tells us only about that individual and nothing else. If we see his case magnified so many times that we can turn it into a statistic then is there anything wrong in doing that ? Of course we should be able to tell about ourselves but when it is done only to add weight to a political argument eg. 'I did this and that and so anyone else can' then of course I believe it but I do not give it any particular weight in the argument.

 

sorry I was not trying to be clever or pedantic but just could not get your opening "my personal wealth and I prefer ......"
Overall understood and agree with the points you made

 

Yes - but if someone argues that dustmen cannot become millionnaires then it is important to destroy that assertion if incorrect with examples if you can. Personal examples are useful in that context. The argument is that never mind what your statistics claim, in fact self improvement is possible. There can be tons of examples why masses of people do not move - not least inertia or laziness. I have no truck with someone who wants others to do it all for him. Perhaps people are fairly content with their lot on the whole. There are many sociological studies showing how people who wn lotteries etc and moved out of their social circle were made very unhappy despite increased wealth.

 

Leo..

The measurement of it is now highly questionable... Education etc affects... so a measurement of innate IQ is doubtful......

 

Looks like all agree then, social mobility is possible though really an irrelevant statistic as mobility is really driven by nature and nurture and not any external restrictions. I'm sure if any and I mean any of those who have posted on this thread really wanted to they could get themselves into the house of commons with a seat within 10 years assuming we're not pushing up daisies. That says to me that this capitalist democracy works.

 

erm.... you might have to sell your soul to do so though

....and then when you get there... what next? The system is so tied down..... perhaps that is why Corbyn is so vilified.... he doesn't play the ' game' ?

 

Yes Leo, of course self improvement is possible. The philosophy of 'self help' is one that I would always aspire to myself but would not use to judge others. In the 19th Century it was used as a universal philosophy (see Samuel Smiles, and others) to claim that help given from outside could only have a debilitating effect - in other words it was used as an excuse for not helping anyone. I do not want it used for the same purposes today. When I am on the streets and I see someone sitting by the side of the road wanting money I do not stop to think about all of the reasons why I should not give (he has had his chances and hasn't used them etc.) and so I give, why, because I do not know his life or the chain of circumstances which has led him to that spot. I know that we have individual will, but often we also need luck, and we are all of us 'social' beings who are conditioned in some way by our surroundings - there is nobody, anywhere, who made his fortune absolutely from nothing.

 

I would like to be the Green Party MP. for Watford.....can we arrange that ?