Off Topic Political Debate

How many more deaths should we tolerate before this loophole is closed?

 

MI5 are saying that they have 2000 people in the UK under surveillance. Clearly it is impossible to watch them all 24 hours a day. Nothing to do with people coming into the country, they are already there.

 

The last thing the UK needs is to add more Islamic foot soldiers and weapons, so everything to do with protecting our borders. Your naivety with border control is why Europe is in such a mess. I would expect most European countries to re-impose some kind of border control within a week.

 

Missed the point again! Please explain how you would stop people getting into the UK if they really wanted to.

 

I think you have missed the point entirely.

There is no such thing as a border where you stop 100% of illegals immigrants, weapons, and drugs. Accepting that the UK authorities try to stop as much of the unwanted as possible within financial and time constraints.

The alternative open border you propose is to allow 100% of illegal through. What kind of irresponsible policy is that.

 

Thank you, you confirm what I have said.

 

pleasure!!

 

A good example of this is close to me. Compare the Italian community in Bedford to the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community in Luton. One is very integrated, participative and inclusive, making Bedord a generally pleasant place. The other in parts are like a very different country.

 

One aspect or difference I have noticed between the UK and Germany is that although Germany has a larger foreign born population it is more widely spread over the whole country. The largest immigrant percentages are in Duisburg and Stuttgart but neither of those are as high as London, Leicester or Bradford. The British immigrants populations have become much more concentrated on certain areas. Does this have to do with the urban displacement of the 80s ? Liverpool lost over 200,000 in the Thatcher years, and other towns like Oldham, Burnley etc. were equally devastated. Even Watford was once a relatively homogenous working class town - the de industrialization of England, together with the tendency the English have to leave the cities as soon as they are economically better off left our urban areas in a state of severe depopulation, which was only compensated for by immigration . Unbelievable to think that Greater London has lost around 4 million people in my lifetime - if that had not been replaced by immigration then it would be nearly deserted. The high immigration of the 90s was an attempt to reinvigorate urban life in England after the devastation left by Thatcher.

 

The problem in France is that government policy is to place immigrants in the suburbs of the large cities on huge very rundown estates and not try to integrate them. Try to get a job if you have a postcode from one of these areas; you have no chance. This has made these areas a hotbed for discontent and radical thinking. When I lived in the UK there was one area in Banbury which was very rundown and the houses were cheap. No one really wanted to live there, but the area was taken over by the Pakistani community who did bring some improvement to the housing and some of them tried to become part of the community. Far too many were happy to live within the group and not try to even learn the language, but I could point out that many ex-pat English are no better when they come and live in France.

 

How do you define integration W_Y ? When you go to another country to live you need to live within the law of that country and be able to earn a living without handouts and the majority of Moslems do that.

 

Sorry Cologne, but you are a little naive if you believe that, or you really do not understand what is happening in the UK. In the UK, much of the Muslim community live within the law but on the edge of the rules. They live in the cash community - in my local town there is no Muslim community, yet the station overflows with Taxis operated by Muslims - at 06.00 in the morning there are more taxis than cars parked. How do they make a living? Said town now has 5 curry houses, again during the week they have more waiters than customers and at week-ends only 1 or 2 are busy - again how can they make a living?

I used to travel to Germany quite a lot with work a few years ago and spent a lot of time in Cologne and Neuss - most restaraunts and bars would not take credit cards, cash only. In Cologne, I used to frequent a bar run by an English guy, he never took cards as he told me he ran 2 tills - one he declared and one he trousered.

 

The early 90's saw the huge success of the Thatcher government in turning around a dispirited and failing country. Unfortunately control of the country was passed to the Labour Party. They acted financially responsibly for the first three years by generally following the fiscal rules set down by the previous chancellor of the exchequer Ken Clarke. Labour's big mistake was to implement high immigration into Britain in the late 90's to suck into the country migrants who were likely to vote Labour. Their policy of multi culturalism ensured a lack of integration which produced many of the problems we have today. As Trevor Phillips alluded to, this suited self styled community leaders grabbing the cash and authority.

 

The ex-pats I mixed with in France spoke french with varying degrees of success but most tried hard. Many managed to fully integrate seamlessly within the french community. They did not set up multiple groups preying on vulnerable young girls as the Pakistanis have done in the UK. They did not insist on their own shops, own places of worship, own restaurants, own religion and own laws.

Most were financially self sufficient. They bought houses generally unwanted by the french spending large amounts on local tradesmen and materials. The financial effect on France was extremely positive.

The comparison is unfair to your fellow ex-pats I'm afraid.

 

I don't really understand what the issue of credit cards has to do with this. For many years credit cards were more popular than in Germany - I only have one because without it I can't buy Watford tickets. Their use in Germany is still not as widespread as in the UK. I stick by my original comments about integration - Pakistani families are much closer than British ones would be and if one brother is successfull then it is expected that he carries the rest of the family with him. When I lived in Hamburg we had a Pakistani restaurant close to us where that was the case - and his brothers really were stupid, but he had to provide jobs for them. This is obviously different to typical English family relationships but as long as they get by what does it have to do with you ? It is obvious also that foreign communities will come closer when abroad and will become more conscious about preserving traditions etc. otherwise there would be no 'Chinatown', look at some of the idiotic communities in America preserving their German culture (often from 200 year old memories) ! If they can vote then they should know the language, but other than that they need to live within the laws and earn a living. There are certain 'cultural practices' such as forced arranged marriages, marriage within close families etc. but these are cultural rather than religious - both should be outlawed, the first on moral and the second on medical grounds. Other than that I see no 'compulsion' in integration, because there is not one 'leading' culture as such. I speak German fluently, am a member of a political party here, and have never claimed any benefit here (in 26 years) - but there are some aspects of 'Germanness' which I still find ridiculous and do not abide by. Or would you have me running around in Lederhosen ?

 

My God do you ever actually read what people write before ploughing into the official party lines ? Are you disputing the fact that so many of Britain's towns had become depopulated in the 80s - I thought this was Tebbit's aim when he said they should 'get on their bikes'. Without immigration those towns would have remained empty.

 

Sadly I read a lot of the rubbish you write. If there was some movement away from some towns it was because of the ghettos caused by immigrants swamping whole areas. We now have parts of the UK more in common with Bombay or Islamabad than traditional English towns.

Unfortunately the people responsible for making the decisions which caused this do not live anywhere near these areas.

 

It seems this thread has moved right away from the concept of philosophical discussion about politics.... and has now become a polarised discussion

Left-right
Looney left- Capitalist Right wing
Pro EU- Anti EU
Islamic apologists - Islamaphobes

and to my mind there are many many unfounded and sweeping comments made.

Some of there assertions about Muslims come straight from the BNP/Britain First school of reporting. With little attempt at objectivity.

Now apparently Muslims live on the edge of the law, flout tax rules etc. Oh hang on are we talking about the taxi drivers, curry house staff and corner shop owners or ALL Muslims??

(And if i try and present another view.... I am a neo-liberal loony left apologist etc )

My parents lived in a lovely villa in Spain for 16 years.... they only hung out with ex-pats, spoke hardly any Spanish, lived in 90% foreign developments etc etc
In my two villages in Limousin I would say three quarters of the ex-pats don't speak French and don't mix. We do speak good French and mix with our neighbours socially... but we will always be les Anglais whatever we may imagine.

You can bat these sort of arguments backwards and forwards and make little progress other than the divisive I am right you are wrong type of politics.

The sweeping comments made against people because of their religion/ culture are shameful.

and

PS ISIS are trying to ferment a religious war in Europe.... just about very commentator will agree on this. Just been discussed on Andrew Marr ( BBC but a Tory ( irony) )....... So those who get whipped up into an Anti-Islamic rhetoric are buying into their play.....Muslim communities become marginalized... more young Muslims become radicalised and so it escalates....

 

Cut the insults out of this - as always everyone who does not agree with you 100% is apparently an idiot or is talking rubbish. You have apparently no wish whatsoever to go into an exchange of ideas with anyone and have, at some time, insulted many of the posters on here, and, as Yorkie has pointed out, some posters are staying away as a result - I personally have better ways of occupying a Sunday than to engage further in this frankly childish exchange.

 

Most British moving to France do so because they are attracted to the so called French way of life. They do not demand that the French have to allow dramatic changes to their towns with alien shops, places of worship, laws, etc.
They are usually completely financially self sufficient and spend large amounts of foreign currency locally. To compare our ex-pats to penniless migrants seeking a better life in the UK is fatuous.