Players or manager

[thefanwithnoname]

Place is a but dead so thought I would try and start a discussion

Watching the game yesterday and listening to Graham souness and Gary Neville discussing our manager and players, I found gaz views interesting.

Basically souness asked him a question which was roughly can these players be better (or to that effect) and gaz said he didn't know then went through some players saying they are playing at their best. Example Ashley young

Gaz also said it's been 3 managers (although moyes being called a manager) and same problems with same players (only 2 of Jose signings started yesterday). Therefore it's the players according to our Nev.

That's just my words, the debate was more interesting. Now I dislike Jose a lot, always have done, but I was leaning towards nevs point of view.

Anyone see it? And what are your thoughts?

 

[Chief]

The whole current predicament goes back to the final years of Ferguson's tenure.

I know some people don't see it because we still made the occasional big signing, RVP for instance, but the Glazers were holding very tight purse strings and the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand and Vidic played on too long were not being replaced soon enough, as Fergie ruthlessly did in the previous twenty years of management at United.

So by the time Fergie left and Moyes took over, the squad was on its arse and an out of his depth manager was in charge who was incapable of getting anywhere near the performances out of the squad that Fergie was able to. This combination was disastrous.

At the same time City were doing the opposite, they were throwing big money at building a top drawer squad and their process of getting to the top was in full swing.

We started to panic; sacking managers, replacing them with clueless has-been's (van Gaal), spending money on misfit players (Depay, Falcao, Di Maria), sacking the manager, selling those players, employing another manager (could be said another has been), buying more players (could be said many are misfits also!).

All the while falling behind City. In both quality of player and planning for the future.

It's the club who have ****ed this up, not the players or manager. The Glazers and Woodward. It's astonishing that many people do not get this.

The fact Mourinho is a twat merely adds to it but the bottom line stops with the 'board', whatever that fully consists of. They employed, then sacked, the wrong managers and panic bought star signings instead of the bread and butter (centre halves) players we needed, years ago.

It goes back to never adequately replacing Roy Keane right through to doing likewise with Scholes, Rio, Vidic and Giggs.

We're now ten years behind as a result and will struggle to catch up as City have a bottomless pit with which to stay ahead.

 

[glazerfodder]

The problem is that there are too many contributing factors making it hard to pin the origins of the problem to just one or two issues. For me, the biggest problem (after SAF leaving) was letting David Gill go at the exact same time. Had he stayed on there would have been some continuity of policy throughout the club. Once he left there were too many new faces in new roles, all of them making big mistakes.

Moyes was always the wrong replacement for SAF - that decision alone points to a lack of forward planning within the board of directors. Then Moyes was allowed to get rid of Rene and Phelan - massive mistake. Next big mistake was Woodward - he might be a commercial wizard but he has shown himself to be a complete knob in the transfer business. At a time when City were developing a 10 year plan and scouting for key staff to bring that about such as a director of football and director of sports sciences - we were letting Woodward pay over the odds for crap players.

There seems to have been no cohesive policy for life after SAF and that surprises me considering the considerable commercial nous that the Glazer family obviously has. There seems to have been an expectancy that all would continue as before once the great man had gone, instead it was chaos in all departments.

It isn't all the director's fault. Some players seem to be half-arsed about the whole thing and 50% of hem would struggle to get into many other top sides. We seem unable to find quality replacements for quality players. I agree entirely with the comments about Keane, Scholes etc - it is no coincidence that these are all the areas in which we are suffering the most.

As for the manager, don't like him - and not just because we are playing poorly. I would have Zidane in a heartbeat and the same with Poch but going by the current board we will probably replace him with Warnock. Until then it is all to painful to watch with any great enthusiasm - it's become a bit like watching your faithful old dog ebb away.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

The whole current predicament goes back to the final years of Ferguson's tenure.

I know some people don't see it because we still made the occasional big signing, RVP for instance, but the Glazers were holding very tight purse strings and the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand and Vidic played on too long were not being replaced soon enough, as Fergie ruthlessly did in the previous twenty years of management at United.

So by the time Fergie left and Moyes took over, the squad was on its arse and an out of his depth manager was in charge who was incapable of getting anywhere near the performances out of the squad that Fergie was able to. This combination was disastrous.

At the same time City were doing the opposite, they were throwing big money at building a top drawer squad and their process of getting to the top was in full swing.

We started to panic; sacking managers, replacing them with clueless has-been's (van Gaal), spending money on misfit players (Depay, Falcao, Di Maria), sacking the manager, selling those players, employing another manager (could be said another has been), buying more players (could be said many are misfits also!).

All the while falling behind City. In both quality of player and planning for the future.

It's the club who have ****ed this up, not the players or manager. The Glazers and Woodward. It's astonishing that many people do not get this.

The fact Mourinho is a twat merely adds to it but the bottom line stops with the 'board', whatever that fully consists of. They employed, then sacked, the wrong managers and panic bought star signings instead of the bread and butter (centre halves) players we needed, years ago.

It goes back to never adequately replacing Roy Keane right through to doing likewise with Scholes, Rio, Vidic and Giggs.

We're now ten years behind as a result and will struggle to catch up as City have a bottomless pit with which to stay ahead.

Yeah I agree with most of that

The only "doubt" for want of a better word is that SAF built more than just a squad. He built a mentality which saw poor - average players playing their hearts out. I Mean likes of Fletch and cleverley etc

Moyes did a lot of damage by getting rid of too many players and lost that mentality as a result.

I always said inwoukd rather 2-3 years rebuilding than trying to chase former glories. I mean the Europa cup win was sweet but I'd forgo it to have built a team rather than getting likes of zlatan in short term as a sticky plasters

We've been playing catch up since and throwing money at individual players, likes of lukaku rather than taking a breath and building a team with a style or identity. This is pushing us further back and I fear a Liverpool like period

 

[Red Hadron Collider]

 

[luvgonzo]

Jose has been given money to spend but seems reluctant to play his own signings he's also great at knocking the confidence of some players.

 

[cytrax]

Jose has been given money to spend but seems reluctant to play his own signings he's also great at knocking the confidence of some players.

Jose Mourinho is the problem with Manchester United. I find it ridiculous that we keep talking about Sir Alex. That is now a far gone history. Whatever he, Sir Alex, did or didn't do is certainly not why we are where we are now. The whole argument about the age of squad that he left behind, etc, are simply grasping at straws, in my opinion. We have spent far too much money since Sir Alex that we frankly have no excuses left beyond looking at the current man in charge in his third year at the club.

Our wage bill vs league position is a disgrace. It doesn't show that we are paying over the odds for average players, but rather shows that our class players are underachieving under a manager that has turned us into a complete joke because he enjoys talking too much sh* that he has drained confidence out of the team. He is the worst man-manager in the league, without a doubt. And when you have as many egos as we do in the dressing room, it becomes perfect recipe for unmitigated and continuous disaster. Few examples - Eric Bailly went from being a class player to a league one defender. Class player like Rashford continues to struggle when in the red shirt. Yet he goes with English team and performs. Sanchez was seen as world class player before he came in, but has since turned into a kangaroo. These are NOT Sir Alex's doing!

I guess if we refuse to squarely blame Mourinho for our current state, then the board must be asked why the are sticking by him. Are they "hoping" that we will click overnight and everything will kick on from there with that happy ending come May? I guess it can happen, after all, this is football.

Going forward, we need a manager with humility and dignity that players will respect and fight to play under. Until then, this sad episode continues. Maybe we will go on a run of few good games or even win the odd cup here or there, but the negativity that has now taken stronghold on the squad will always pull us back. The board must grow a pair and fkin do the right thing. It is beyond fully justified at this point.