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Grand Prix thread PIRELLI GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA 2022

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by ched999uk, May 19, 2022.

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Who will cross the line first?

Poll closed May 21, 2022.
  1. Charles Leclerc

    21.4%
  2. Carlos Sainz

    7.1%
  3. Max Verstappen

    28.6%
  4. Sergio Perez

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Lewis Hamilton

    21.4%
  6. George Russell

    14.3%
  7. Lando Norris

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Lance Stroll

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Fernando Alonso

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Any Other

    7.1%
  1. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    I haven't looked but I bet Redbull has gone up in price.
     
    #201
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  2. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Could they do it similar to drivetrain usage penalties? For every million you go over, you drop x grid spots? May be a bit of an unfair advantage for the richer teams though.
     
    #202
  3. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    If you analyse what Horner has said, risk of missing the last 4 races, they threw so much at ensuring they were competitive this season it indicates they will blow their budget this year, big time. Given they knew the rules, they have cheated, or will have in order to meet their obligations to the sport, but at the expense of the other teams.
    If they do blow the budget then there should be a points deduction, for drivers and constructors alike. I think 10 points per £1m over budget. It is a permanent penalty that the extra advantage it gives the team is not easily mitigated by the enhanced performance they gain from it.
    10 points for the contructors, split 50/50 over their drivers. If they go £5m over, then 50 points. It needs to be painful enough to make the overspend questionable re the advantage gained. The budget should be like the technical rules, unbreakable.
    I am not saying this because it is Redbull, I am saying this because it is like any naughty child, they need to learn cheating is forbidden. I am concerned the Merc's and Ferrari's of this world maybe able to cheat without it being blatantly obvious.
    I bet Horner will cast doubt in this direction too.
     
    #203
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  4. moreinjuredthanowen

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    I have to say I think that is fair.

    Now if someone ploughs their car into barriers a lot (sainz) then it costs just to stand still.

    If the cost of getting to races is 2x I could understand some adjustment made for everyone. If alpine want to play the politics and say they covered it to pressure red bull fair enough but it is political

    The important thing is that TRANSPORT costs are separated and covered then for all teams equally. If they give 1mil more say or 5 mil more to cover getting stuff to Brazil etc then make sure they have to report every penny.

    I think if teams think they can develop cars all they like then get forgiveness they are deluded.
     
    #204
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  5. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    My fear about the budget cap is the point at which it is checked. i.e if it's post season are they really going to strip a team of drivers or constructors championship? Imagine the negative press coverage, alternatively they could give the team negative points to start next season but they would still have the position they cheated their way to in the history books! Not that's not happened before!

    I thought that the budget cap was supposed to be in for last year but I must have missed Liberty/FIA publishing any figures or was it just that they all underspent?
    If any team breaks it then they need to be punished like any other major cheating event. Like someone crashing under team orders or copying data from another team as it would be a planned rule break not an 'accidental' one like say a wing flexes a little too much or a slot gap is fractionally out - ok so we know they all push the boundaries a bit but spending too much is a fairly easy one to control.

    The FIA/Liberty need to make a public statement of what the consequences would be for any team either not attending a race due to budget or breaking the budget cap rules.
     
    #205
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  6. moreinjuredthanowen

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    they can impose a massive fine for the following season and restricted budget.

    In theory they should at least. not sure about stripping stuff but like FFP in football in theory you should get reduced budget or wind tunnel time or whatever.

    I would assume €140mil is up to the teams how they spend up to that or not.

    Theres huge scope a few races in to cut your cloth to meet the cap even with massive shiiping costs.

    You can for example just plain not bring as many parts or spares or stretch and engine out longer or if you have an accident on day 1 shrug and say you can't repair it now.

    I personally think the idea is to make this a sustainable sport for teams to make money to pay for the thing 140mil is actually a pittance compared to a football teams revenue so its about getting 2 cars on a grid to race paid for by advertising and tv money.
     
    #206
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  7. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    Just re-reading the rules. There was a cap last year but it is reduced by $5m this year and again next year. Some things like driver salaries it doesn't cover/restrict. But penalties are discretionary, which I don't like. To a degree I understand that things like an accident costs you have to make allowances for, depending on how many a team has. But crash and then take the opportunity to install some new development might be something a team could get away with but I don't see them crashing to hide that.
    $140m for 23 races and 3 sprints does not sound like much. Is Horner arguing they agreed to the cap when the number of venues was fewer? The budget is roughly $6m per venue, no doubt higher for the 3 sprint venues, slightly lower for the other 20.
    It is at a level where it needs to be managed carefully. According to Motorsport an F1 team employees between 300 and 1200 people. I find the 1200 hard to believe, $116K per member of staff, not to say that is what they are paid as the budget covers the full cost of the car.
    People on the road for 9 months of the year need a sizeable expense account to stay sane, having been a traveller in my job role I know that.
    Horner's real problem, I suspect, is he has struggled to reduce the expenditure but ducking some of the hard decisions that had to be made. F1 has not determined the penalty so Horner is softening the F1 bosses up in advance.
     
    #207
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  8. moreinjuredthanowen

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    a lot of people get paid way less than that as mechanics etc.

    In the end the European season part costs way less than the "away" or "Long haul" part of the season. I'm sure manufacturers are getting away with some sharing of resources etc.
     
    #208
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  9. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

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    Back in Bernie's day didn't 'he' pay for freight if the team scored points in previous year?
     
    #209
  10. moreinjuredthanowen

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    there was money for getting a point that little teams brust into joyous tears over yes :)

    The thing is really now on a very much budget with engines lasting a long time

    I found this: kind of interesting and sort of along the lines of breaking the thing out (20mil for engine supply sounds about right) I'm sure other teams spend mor eor less and things have changed a bit since then with the cap but the rough % must be fairly locked in.

    20% on engines (if you don't make them)
    20% of staff
    30% on car etc
    25% on racing (getting there and stuff)
    5% on paying fines for verstappen mouthing off or whatever.

    Its already 40mil less than the below. so.... somewhere its got cheaper, be it in engines, development of car or less staff and frankly the smaller teams will squeeze the staff first so i would expect a brain drain out of f1 as the budgets tighten.

    You can only transport so much "less" to races and line up these long hauls so much to offset big increases in costs.

    please log in to view this image
     
    #210

  11. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    Couple of thoughts (some of which make me feel quite dumb for not having asked these questions, and sought answers, before)
    1. Drivers fees are excluded from the cap.
    2. New capital expenditure, surely that should be a depreciation cost. An accounting opportunity for some teams. I haven't properly understood, or perhaps followed, how the budget works, costs including capital costs or costs considering depreciation. If the later then car development could be amortised over a term.
    3. Come the arrival of new teams, they will have extraordinary set up costs
    4. Add at least 10% for inflation to the end of last year and then some for this year.
    5. How can change in value of products be an income? If it is a capital appreciation rather than depreciation it is more likely a balance sheet item. Would only translate to an income if the value was realised.
     
    #211
  12. moreinjuredthanowen

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    The drivers being out makes sense i guess as some might be paid under the table and some might be paying to drive. the fact is a hamilton costs x and a "marzipan " pays y to drive (and it shows)

    I don't know about new capital. I would assume there's a big difference between building a facility (if you are new) and someone buying a new "X" machine. i suppose it depends on F!'s thoughts on the needs. I thought there was something about this in the set up.

    I could only assume new teams either "buy" an old one or have to build from scratch but none of that from scratch is a yearly cost?

    I think for that account change in value of something under development would mean they did realise the value in the accounting period but it turned out more lucrative than expected and is a one off bonus that they wanted to call out (and not expect it every year) It is an odd kind of one off and could be anything.
     
    #212

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